Keys to the Kingdom - G. Shearin
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:35 am
Discussion is open!
Where the bluebird sings of beautiful and impossible things
http://www.batbland.com/phpbb/
I'm just going to say it. I hate this train of thought. Hate it. It is the essence of a sickeningly manupulative and co-dependent relationship. If that's who people think Vincent is...then I believe they've completely misunderstood the story. Beauty is never at war with Beast, trying to keep him from kicking her out of his life. The entire point of the fairy tale is that the Beast keeps inviting her in, and further in, and further in. This author's interpretation absolutely refuses to listen to what Vincent said during "A Happy Life," about his feelings and motivations. Even then, in that one instance when he determined that separation from Catherine was the only recourse to permit final healing, he never "sent her away." Vincent does not ever, ever, ever, force Catherine to do anything Catherine does not want to do. Why do people get so condescending toward Vincent when he expects Catherine to treat him with the same respect he shows her?Was she on the edge of another battle to stay in Vincent’s life? Was he trying to be noble and planning to send her away again, or was he testing the waters to see if she might be having second thoughts - about what? - about her relationship with him? - about her feelings for Elliot?... Surely Vincent couldn’t send her away now...or think she would want to go. Well, if that was what he was thinking, he would have his work cut out for him. He would have to shove her out of the tunnels kicking and screaming this time...and lock the gates behind her until she ran out of gates to re-enter. They had been making slow progress, and she would not be sent back "to find happiness with someone else" now. There wouldn’t be happiness with someone else. How could he possibly not understand that?
(1) A protest against a gesture of "intimacy" is expected. (2) This is "loving" manipulation. Not "seduction," as the author is ever so careful to point out later. But manipulation parsed as an act of responsible love. Vincent's "normal boundaries" don't matter. Vincent's "normal boundaries" are meant to be viewed as abnormal, according to this Catherine's standards. Comparing the present story to the original episode, Catherine's lap-sitting is actually out of character for the Catherine of the series too. So here's a double "I don't think so," from this reader....as she turned and eased herself into his lap - an unheard of breach of his normal boundaries. Moving slowly enough to allow him to protest if he felt the need, but quickly enough not to give him an excessive amount of time to think it through, she rested his arm across her knees and settled herself lovingly against him.
Which somehow justifies such intrusion when it's been clearly stated that the author's Catherine knows what Vincent's boundaries are and decides it's time to supercede them....and she thought Vincent seemed to need the reassurance of this new closeness as much as she did.
And here's a subtle rebuke. If you had been kissing me regularly beforehand, my sense of deprivation would not have led me to find solace from another source. Ouch. Really? Assumption: Vincent withholds rightful affection from Catherine, while she does not do so with him. It justifies Catherine's bid for relational power in this scene."Maybe I was sympathizing...maybe I needed to be kissed, too. It’s been a long time...and it was a desperate moment."
While they were being honest. Uh huh. So the habit of their relationship is to be dishonest? Or, at best, merely avoidant? (The author has more to say about this in the Vincent section.) Okay, I can see how one might arrive at this conclusion if one is dissatisfied with the tenor of the onscreen conversations Vincent and Catherine get to share. We've discussed that frustration with the storytelling style before. But this depiction of how Vincent and Catherine relate to one another is so...so...skewed. And the pushing (the author's word, repeated several times), Catherine's quiet coercion, is just ugly."The only thing that would be better would be remembering that you returned it." She knew she was pushing her luck, but while they were being honest....
"I’m afraid...if I allow myself...." His voice trailed off, and he looked away again.
And this self-limitation makes the rest of the "pushing" okay?She would have been disappointed if he had stopped her, but she wouldn’t have pushed him any farther if he had.
Assumption: Vincent is woefully inexperienced. Assumption: Vincent's ignorance/inexperience does not match Catherine's notions of perfection. Assumption: Catherine knows what "perfection" is supposed to entail. Assumption: Catherine has been urging Vincent to "catch up" with her "normal" level of romantic experience. Assumption: Tonight's product of careful manipulation may be considered to occur "of Vincent's own accord." Assumption: Since this is a kind of "breakthrough" moment, the new conditions instituted in this scene may be expected to carry through into the future, perpetuating Catherine's dominance and Vincent's submission. And question: If Catherine kissed Elliot and wanted it to be Vincent, then why is she now kissing Vincent while comparing him to Elliot?It wasn’t the experienced kind of kiss she would have had from Elliot, but it was the one she had waited for for so long...the one Vincent offered of his own accord. They had the rest of their lives to experiment enough to develop perfection.
This is straight out of the disabled stereotype playbook. It reinterprets Vincent's earlier lines into a faulty construct. Vincent as I understand him would never say this. In the realm of logical fallacies, this statement sets up a Straw-Man."Catherine, he could give you so much. I limit your life...in so many ways. I would understand...if you chose to return to the life you were born to...but letting you go...would be...."
The Vincent of the TV show has never done this to the Catherine of the TV show. The Catherine of the TV show would never (not after her darkest moment in the Pilot) physically strike out at Vincent, just as he would never physically strike out at her. And again, this kind of dialogue reveals a failure to hearken to Vincent's self-expression in "A Happy Life" (and probably many other episodes as well)."... now that you’ll never try to send me away again...that you’ll never make another decision ‘for my own good’ without including me in the decision." Not hearing an immediate answer, she emphasized her demand by pounding the handful of vest against his chest. "Promise me...now!" That point would be settled before she left.
Funny, though, how throughout the series, Catherine repeatedly turns from Vincent to focus on other relationships with all manner of someone elses. He knows her heart and so I don't believe he is confused or affronted by her behavior, but I could understand why he might be, especially in an alternate universe like this one where Vincent is ignorant to a fault and lacks both the wisdom and compassion of the Vincent from the TV show.Finally. She had his promise. He must have finally understood that she would settle for no one else.
Again, Vincent's assessments about what is important and what is not important are thrust aside. Catherine says it is important, so it is. She knows better than he what they need to pay attention to. But her "politeness" in offering him a choice about "when" to discuss why she is right and he is wrong is supposed to validate her dismissal of Vincent's perspective. This patronizing condescension is indeed part and parcel with Catherine's Topside culture, but at least in the TV series the Tunnelfolk were permitted to live out a working protest against this kind of paternalism. Not so here."A cut. It isn’t important."
"It is important, but we can discuss it another time, if you’d rather," she answered...
Um, why astonishing? Because Vincent and the truth are long-term strangers? I don't get it.Another astonishing display of truth. Catherine was both surprised and elated.
Of course this Catherine dares. How else is she going to achieve her conquest?She had already pushed him beyond his usual limits. Did she dare push one step more?
Once again, it is assumed that Vincent must in some way protest a gesture of intimate affection. Once again, Catherine "allows" Vincent a Catherine-determined window of time to exercise the amount of free will that she grants him. This is what oppressors do to their victims when they want to elicit capitulation. They ensnare people with an illusion of freedom that allows the dominating party to get what they want. This Catherine is SO generous with her leash.To allow him time to argue that thought with himself, she turned her attention to his bed.
Because if there were any seduction intended, it would undermine the whole moral justification the author has established in order to correct Vincent's faulty approach to his relationship with a blameless Catherine.She wanted to make it clear that there was no seduction intended in her offer.
The dominance-submission theme again, where Catherine is fully in command, and where her power is described in "nice" terms of being "helpful."In another moment of silent acceptance, Vincent moved from his chair and sat down on the side of his bed to remove his boots, but the injury to his hand was slowing progress.
"Let me," Catherine offered, happy for the opportunity to help, and not quite believing the permission he had apparently granted.
This is another...interesting take on the storyline. When, after a violent confrontation with enemies, has Vincent ever needed Catherine to "help him back from the darkness"? That's always been his own work, the most private terrain of his soul. The following emotional landscape that the author paints for her reader functions within her universe, but I think Vincent's feelings are extremely simplified in order to portray him as a spiritually weak creature, the classic tormented soul unable to cope with the vicissitudes of life.Vincent had once again protected Catherine, but this time she wasn’t there to help him back from the darkness.
Why? I mean, okay he wants to be alone. But why "dread"? (Answer forthcoming during Father's participation in the story...)...but he dreaded having to ask Father for help.
First dread, now dashed hopes...all directed at Father. What kind of relationship do they have, that Vincent so fears his parent? (Wait and see...)...hoping to clean the wound and assess the damage before Father saw it; but that hope was dashed when Father entered his chamber, having heard on the pipes that Vincent had returned.
How grudgingly the author allows Father to "voice his concern and love for both Vincent and Catherine"! Here Vincent is portrayed in terms of a child helpless against his Father's haranguing. Vincent is not grateful for Father's emotional and medical support, but for an unexpected lack of chastisement. What the author gives us is the malignant relationship between an abusive parent and his abused son. This unhinged and impotent Vincent is the product of his cruel upbringing. In other words, this Vincent, like the Vincent of the show, is the way he is because he was raised by Jacob Wells. But the Father in this story, unlike that of the TV show, is a very bad father indeed.Vincent turned away as Father approached, much the way he might have when he and Devin had been up to some sort of mischief as children, but he knew Father saw the evidence of blood in the basin’s water. Knowing there was no way to hide it, and that he would soon have to ask for help anyway, Vincent turned back to Father...For once Father didn’t chastise him, or them, for carelessness, and Vincent was grateful for that. After all, Elliot’s help had saved Father’s life as well as his own. With a resigned attitude he told Father that love can wound, too...
"Odd" how Father's compassion during this event must be described in terms of being out of character for him, isn't it? And it seems we've moved on from Vincent wanting to be alone "to think" so that now he is "brooding." I've come to strongly dislike the word "brooding." Extraverts constantly use it against introverts in order to depict how introversion is inferior to extraverted methods of processing thoughts and emotions.Blessedly Father didn’t argue or ask questions...and left his son sitting beside his desk brooding.
Yup. This bit of commentary rounds out the author's earlier hints in Catherine's section. Vincent is the "problem" with the relationship between Beauty and Beast. Decent explanation follows of how their bond works in this author's universe. But now Vincent is sitting there in dread of Catherine. I think this piece must be recounting a moment from "Sexy, Saintly Beauty and the Scaredy-Cat Mopey-Beast".Whatever she said, he had no doubt that it would be the truth. She had always been open and honest with him. He couldn’t say that he had always been open with her - scrupulously honest about what he told her, but not always telling her everything he probably should.
The sentiments that precede and follow this statement are bad enough, but this... This. Is. Not. Vincent....the part of him that loved her so desperately felt betrayed...was happy that she felt guilt...that she suffered, too.
I note how insistent the author is on this point. "What's happening is consensual!" says the author. "He's submitting against his better judgment because he wants to! Catherine is assuming her rightful place as Vincent's savior at last!" Methinks she doth protest too much, because if Vincent really is as mentally messed up as he's been portrayed, this whole situation is far from being a romantic and healing interlude between two freely consenting adults. It's still a power play, no matter how insistently it's being justified in Catherine's favor.Vincent knew she was giving him time to stop her, but he couldn’t. It crossed his mind that he should, but the strength to refuse her loving gesture simply wasn’t there.
This Vincent is such a yucky quagmire of conflicted angst.Now he didn’t want her to feel guilt...didn’t want her to worry.
Catherine's right, Catherine's right, Catherine's right. Vincent's wrong, Vincent's wrong, Vincent's wrong...etcetera and so forth. Catherine didn't need to smack him in the chest. Vincent is silently flagellating himself enough for both of them.She was right to place it in the open...She deserved so much better than that, but she also deserved more than he could offer her.
Liberating. For whom?It was liberating. He had finally told her the kind of truth she needed to hear, and he felt the happiness that flowed through her.
Aaannnd, um, this is creepy as hell. "Pinning her to the wall"..."Taking her to a distant cavern and"...Catherine's social and emotional domination coupled with Vincent's fantasies of physical domination leave a sour taste in the aftermath of this imagery. I want no part of this author's idea of romance, have no interest in entering her fairy tale.He knew it was far overdue, and he wanted to be truthful, but right now he didn’t need her to hear of the times he had imagined pinning her to the wall and kissing her until they could barely breathe...or of taking her to a distant cavern and... Enough of that! Those were fantasies. He needed to take care of the moment at hand.
Text book. Co-dependency. Shared psychological disorder. Not something I'd want to emulate in my own dreams, let alone my real life relationships.Why did she stay with him? Because she loved him, he admitted to himself, and would tolerate whatever she had to, as long as she had his love in return.
Okay. Here we finally get at the heart of Vincent's misgivings. It is ye olde vison of Vincent as a barely-in-control monster. Catherine trusts him even when he doesn't trust anyone, including himself. Catherine is (again) right, while Vincent is not right. This is consensual. This is consensual. Vincent can stop what's happening at any time. He would (of course, goes the atmospheric attitude) be wrong to do so, but he's free to do what she wants, free to do what she wants, and he wants it too, wants to please her, wants to become the man she wants him to be...give in, Vincent, give up your faulty values and inhibitions, let Catherine save you from your broken self.... I know this is nowhere directly stated in the prose, but this is the vibe I get from reading it.What was wrong with him? Why was he allowing this? Suppose he lost control? Suppose he frightened her? Frightened her? Not likely. He realized that nothing about him frightened her. He could frighten everyone else, but Catherine would not run from him. She had trusted him through everything they had faced, and so far she had been right. He knew she would be disappointed if he stopped her, but he also knew she would allow him to set the boundaries.
There it is. Abnormal Vincent, who has never accepted who and what he is, who cannot imagine anyone accepting him (probably because, somehow, Father and everyone else Below have never accepted him in all their years of life together in the Tunnels), must want above all else to be "normal." I'm just going to say here that this is such a terribly common assumption on the part of the mainstream world, when it comes to imagining how Other/Outsider persons experience life. It is also a false assumption. Unenlightened "normalcy" is not anywhere near as desirable as its proponents believe it to be.Vincent was gradually absorbing the fact that she didn’t want to kiss Elliot...a normal man, with normal lips, who could give her anything she wanted in her world. She wanted to kiss only the lips that set Vincent apart from the other men she knew...the lips he had despised because he couldn’t imagine her accepting them...so he hesitantly returned her kiss.
It is important for this Vincent to feel shame about being inexperienced. He has to regret not fulfilling the lovers' mutual needs sooner, to complete the justification for Catherine's righteous intervention. Experimentation...practice...applauding Catherine's patience. This is such a wacky hagiography of Saint Catherine Chandler. Sorry. Snark. My own patience is wearing thin.Where had he found the courage to kiss her? He was acutely conscious...and more than a little embarrassed, about his lack of experience in such things...self-conscious about his odd mouth and teeth...She was more patient than he felt he deserved, but he had always been a fast learner, and practice was something he would look forward to.
*frustrated sigh*He didn’t want to remind her, but he had to give her one more chance to regain her senses.
This is the second time the author has disparaged Vincent's "nobility." I think she's working from a bad definition. She's also tapping into a very, very common stereotype of disabled characterization. Think of Disney's mutation of Quasimodo in The Hunchback of Notre Dame, where our heroic hunchback "nobly" sets aside his attraction to Esmerelda to bring Phoebus and the Gypsy girl together. (Talk about poor Hugo rolling over in his grave!) This is neither Quasimodo nor Vincent, but the worldview behind this weird extrapolation of selfish selflessness insists that responsible disabled people do not cling to their non-disabled lovers...unless it's on said non-disabled lover's terms.So that was it. She was determined to be in his life. She felt that strongly for him...not for Elliot. He doubted he could muster up the nobility to send her away now, anyway.
Note how the author keeps rewarding Vincent through the bond for each little acquiescence he makes to Catherine's way of doing things. Good Beast. Do that trick again. Good Beast.That was obviously another truth Catherine needed to hear. He felt the satisfaction in her when she heard that admission. He should have said such things before.
Silent submission, rather.In another moment of silent acceptance...
Where did this Vincent grow up? In solitary confinement? How can he be so untouched by his underworld culture's suffusing ethic of giving and receiving help from one another? This. Is. Not. Vincent.He allowed it, wondering how such a small thing could make her so happy.
And this is my whole problem with this story. Catherine's normal subsumes Vincent's at every turn.She had long ago realized that to Vincent it was perfectly normal...part of ordinary, everyday life. It still held her in awe that such things could have been happening around her all her life and she never knew.
Addiction. What an apt metaphor for this "romance." And the lap snuggling thing. The author obviously thinks this is the height of happy (non-intercourse-based) intimacy. To each her own, I suppose."I don’t believe...that I have the strength to go backward again," he answered. There was a pause and a small smile. "I believe this could become something of...an addiction."
"I never thought I’d be so glad to see you lose strength or become addicted," she grinned and stood on tiptoe to plant another kiss happily on his lips.
...the book and tea tray temporarily forgotten in favor of contently indulging Vincent’s new addictions.
I understand your point. What I think you are reading in this passage is frustration over relationship pacing. In this sense, what this author's Catherine is saying is that she is not wanting to hear from Vincent what she has heard before. She believes they are past that (or should be) and the phrasing used (kicking and screaming) only underscores her desire to have him see that. A little bit of hyperbole, perhaps, but I don't think it is indicative of a truly co-dependent or manipulative relationship.This author's interpretation absolutely refuses to listen to what Vincent said during "A Happy Life," about his feelings and motivations. Even then, in that one instance when he determined that separation from Catherine was the only recourse to permit final healing, he never "sent her away." Vincent does not ever, ever, ever, force Catherine to do anything Catherine does not want to do.
On the one hand, I can agree with this, yet in another way, must women always wait for men to initiate a change in boundaries? Clearly, there are some boundaries that require permission to cross. But I'm not sure this is one of those, especially in the slowness with which she approached, giving him time to put a stop to it if it indeed was out of bounds for him at that time.Which somehow justifies such intrusion when it's been clearly stated that the author's Catherine knows what Vincent's boundaries are and decides it's time to supercede them.
For the most part, I'm with you on these comments. I do think it is a reflections of dissatisfaction with the dialogue. And we are rearing the 'afraid to become intimate' trope that so many fanfics use (this is actually a very mild one in that regard. I do think the author was remiss in her choice of 'while they were being honest' wordage. I think she meant more 'while they were sharing' in that she feels Vincent does not share enough information with Catherine."Maybe I was sympathizing...maybe I needed to be kissed, too. It’s been a long time...and it was a desperate moment."
And here's a subtle rebuke. If you had been kissing me regularly beforehand, my sense of deprivation would not have led me to find solace from another source. Ouch. Really? Assumption: Vincent withholds rightful affection from Catherine, while she does not do so with him. It justifies Catherine's bid for relational power in this scene.
...
"The only thing that would be better would be remembering that you returned it." She knew she was pushing her luck, but while they were being honest....
"I’m afraid...if I allow myself...." His voice trailed off, and he looked away again.
While they were being honest. Uh huh. So the habit of their relationship is to be dishonest? Or, at best, merely avoidant? (The author has more to say about this in the Vincent section.) Okay, I can see how one might arrive at this conclusion if one is dissatisfied with the tenor of the onscreen conversations Vincent and Catherine get to share. We've discussed that frustration with the storytelling style before. But this depiction of how Vincent and Catherine relate to one another is so...so...skewed. And the pushing (the author's word, repeated several times), Catherine's quiet coercion, is just ugly.
I'm with you on the first assumption. Although, I do believe he is inexperienced. The degree to which, and the areas in, are perhaps up to our imagination. But many stories paint him in such inept light in this respect. Your other assumptions seem to reach a bit from what was said. Since the conversation is about Elliot, I don't find it that odd that she turns to him in comparison, but she needn't have gone there. I think this passage is merely stating that she has waited a long time to be kissed by Vincent. I don't see the degree of manipulation that you do, I guess because both men and women "prepare" for these moments, whether it be mood music, candles, sweet nothings in the ear, etc. These are all meant to get the other party receptive. And since we know the author views Vincent as inexperienced, anything done to make him more comfortable doesn't necessarily mean dominance in all future encounters. Once that confidence hurdle has been crossed, self-expression becomes easier.Assumption: Vincent is woefully inexperienced. Assumption: Vincent's ignorance/inexperience does not match Catherine's notions of perfection. Assumption: Catherine knows what "perfection" is supposed to entail. Assumption: Catherine has been urging Vincent to "catch up" with her "normal" level of romantic experience. Assumption: Tonight's product of careful manipulation may be considered to occur "of Vincent's own accord." Assumption: Since this is a kind of "breakthrough" moment, the new conditions instituted in this scene may be expected to carry through into the future, perpetuating Catherine's dominance and Vincent's submission. And question: If Catherine kissed Elliot and wanted it to be Vincent, then why is she now kissing Vincent while comparing him to Elliot?
I can see where you might see this. I could see it as she is concerned that Vincent is being self-sacrificing and not wanting to unduly bring the focus on him, or concern her, so tries to shrug it off by saying, 'It isn't important.' Granted, if the author had phrased Catherine's concern along those lines, then I wouldn't have to assume in my head that's what she meant. Which, reflecting on this while in the gym this afternoon, that's what I do when I read. Krista talks about spackling plot holes; I 'spackle' what I read to make sense to me. Unless it's egregiously off and I can't supply enough spackle. Plus, I don't bring the writer's eye that you do, Zara, so I just zip merrily along, making my own assumptions. Which is also why I have a hard time identifying favorites, as I read quickly, and go, 'that was nice, or a mess, or whatever' and move on to the next."A cut. It isn’t important."
"It is important, but we can discuss it another time, if you’d rather," she answered...
Again, Vincent's assessments about what is important and what is not important are thrust aside.
Again, read 'sharing' for truth. This author obviously has a problem with Vincent's reticence and lack of dialogue.Another astonishing display of truth. Catherine was both surprised and elated.
Um, why astonishing? Because Vincent and the truth are long-term strangers? I don't get it.
Yes, this gets to the sharing aspect I mentioned above, while throwing in a judgment (should).Whatever she said, he had no doubt that it would be the truth. She had always been open and honest with him. He couldn’t say that he had always been open with her - scrupulously honest about what he told her, but not always telling her everything he probably should.
This doesn't seem so Vincenty to me. The sorting out part is okay, just that, as you said, he seems to be dreading her approach. I see where you come from on the introversion/extraversion aspect. I will say that just because one is an introvert does not mean you don't share. Timing is everything. Here, Catherine pushes before he is ready....but there was so much more to sort out. By the time Catherine appeared at his door, Vincent had prepared himself to face whatever she told him.
This is a common theme in many fanfics, as well.There it is. Abnormal Vincent, who has never accepted who and what he is, who cannot imagine anyone accepting him (probably because, somehow, Father and everyone else Below have never accepted him in all their years of life together in the Tunnels), must want above all else to be "normal." I'm just going to say here that this is such a terribly common assumption on the part of the mainstream world, when it comes to imagining how Other/Outsider persons experience life. It is also a false assumption. Unenlightened "normalcy" is not anywhere near as desirable as its proponents believe it to be.
Ginny Shearin's Vincent blends three common caricatures of disability: the Noble Warrior, the Obsessive Avenger, and the Sweet Innocent. (We can talk more about that, if you like.)
Interesting thought! You may be on to something there.Considering the prevalence of female fans writing fanfiction, I have to wonder whether this story, and other tales in fandom that proliferate along the same vein, might actually be fed by the wounds that sexism inflicts.
Can you tell me how you would characterize the relationship in this story? As in, what is the tenor of what's really happening during this scene, as you understand it? I think you are writing from a calmer place, and so thinking more rationally about the characters.Pat wrote:I don't think it is indicative of a truly co-dependent or manipulative relationship.
It's a good consideration. I can see how the author must be using it as an indicator of an "advancement" in the kind of relationship that has a trajectory with which most viewers must be familiar. I think my main objection to it is that it seems to be a breach of cultural protocol, for both characters of the TV show (not those of the fanfiction).Pat wrote:In terms of the lap-sitting, I'd offer for consideration the length of time in the relationship at this juncture.
Maybe this ties in with my idea about how fanfiction authors might be projecting upon the way Catherine and Vincent relate to one another the way male-dominated culture treats real-world women.Pat wrote:...must women always wait for men to initiate a change in boundaries?
The author's Catherine gave Vincent many chances to say, "No." But the author did not. I'm not sure how to talk clearly about this distinction. In a scene like this, where the author obviously does not want Catherine to come across as seductive or manipulative, it can be a great temptation for the author to say in exposition, "This is not seductive or manipulative," even as the character behavior, apart from that explanation, could easily indicate otherwise. In this case, the action progresses according to the author's designs. The characters follow the plot. Catherine pushes, Vincent does not resist. Catherine pushes some more, Vincent acquiesces. Catherine pushes even more, Vincent is "liberated" and responds in kind. I confess I'm of the school of writerly thought that finds plot-driven stories unauthentic. This story has to change the characters of the TV show to get them to do what the author (and her target readers) want to see them doing.Pat wrote:Clearly, there are some boundaries that require permission to cross. But I'm not sure this is one of those, especially in the slowness with which she approached, giving him time to put a stop to it if it indeed was out of bounds for him at that time.
I'd like to stick with my explanation of introvert/extravert disconnect on this one.Pat wrote:I think she meant more 'while they were sharing' in that she feels Vincent does not share enough information with Catherine.
Sometime, we should explore the meaning of Vincent's virginity. The outside-in, Topside-Down, take on the matter calls him "inexperienced." Vincent thinks of himself and his relationship with Catherine in terms of "purity." Topside-Down: Vincent holds back, erects boundaries, is too restrained, too slow, gives too little. Vincent: I'm reaching out, holding close, cherishing each moment for its perfect gifts, finding new freedom moment-by-moment, exercising great creativity. Topside-Down: Vincent lacks social and sexual confidence. Vincent: I possess the faith and courage to risk doing the most loving thing for myself and others in any situation.Pat wrote:I'm with you on the first assumption. Although, I do believe he is inexperienced. The degree to which, and the areas in, are perhaps up to our imagination. But many stories paint him in such inept light in this respect.
Spackling is a great image for this process. I'm not very good at it, though. I'm more likely to rebuild the whole damn wall. Or else just sit quietly contemplating the unspackled effects of the craftsmanship. Or else leave the premises entirely. Maybe I'm a visionary, but not a reformer. Even in literary circles. I take life in its entirety personally.Pat wrote:Which, reflecting on this while in the gym this afternoon, that's what I do when I read. Krista talks about spackling plot holes; I 'spackle' what I read to make sense to me. Unless it's egregiously off and I can't supply enough spackle. Plus, I don't bring the writer's eye that you do, Zara, so I just zip merrily along, making my own assumptions. Which is also why I have a hard time identifying favorites, as I read quickly, and go, 'that was nice, or a mess, or whatever' and move on to the next.
Yes, that is a great strength of the piece.Pat wrote: I do like that the author offered the two perspectives.
Ooooohhh yeah. Mild as violets and butterflies by comparison to some things out there.Pat wrote:Yes, Father does not come off so well in this story. Again, mild by comparison to many others.
Too true. When introverts do share, extraverts are apt to discount the value and content of the communication because the patterns of expression differ from those which extraverts prefer (as I believe much of fandom does with characters like Vincent and Father).Pat wrote: I will say that just because one is an introvert does not mean you don't share.
Pat wrote:I felt guilty taking so long to find one. As I said, I just don't remember stories. So in trying to find one, this felt least objectionable over several I went through.
I think I'll give this tangent its own post. Would you like me to place it here, or in "We Who Are Not As Others"?Pat wrote:Yes, please.Zara wrote:Ginny Shearin's Vincent blends three common caricatures of disability: the Noble Warrior, the Obsessive Avenger, and the Sweet Innocent. (We can talk more about that, if you like.)
Your history can't help but impact you, especially in regards to these issues in this story. Couple that with your INFJ tendencies (at least, as I understand them ) and aspects that don't make sense/resonate with you or tap into personal experience are bound to create reaction in you. I bring my own baggage to what I read, and it shapes my responses. Yet, we learn from each other (at least I do, I sometimes think you get the short shrift in this deal).I know I'm highly sensitive. That just my nature, how I'm wired. I feel everything through my personal worldview lens and I feel everything deeply, insensely. Thank you too, for listening to me do that "out loud."
I shall try. Bear in mind my reading approach as I do, and having mulled over discussion to this point.I don't think it is indicative of a truly co-dependent or manipulative relationship.
Can you tell me how you would characterize the relationship in this story? As in, what is the tenor of what's really happening during this scene, as you understand it?
I confess that this never occurred to me, as I'm not sure I ever really knew it. From your explanation, however, I can see how this applies to your view of the show and mythology. I think many, if not most, in fandom do not apply the mythology to the show, certainly not with the knowledge you bring to it. I did not, until my encounter with you. So, many stories are not going to ever approach the mythology aspects. Reason enough for the importance of discussion, IMO. Yet, I think it can be important to allow a platform for the less mythological, at least as a means of reaching more people, and to gradually introduce them to the mythology as a way of expanding their understanding.my main objection to it[lap-sitting] is that it seems to be a breach of cultural protocol, for both characters of the TV show ... The romance between Vincent and Catherine is a chivalric one.
Interesting. This is why I would find it useful to see more writers discuss how they approach writing (and if they even know). Besides the approach, how they see the characters also shapes the story. In this story, Vincent is off-kilter (but not as badly as some stories have him). Catherine is not as off for me as perhaps she is for you.The author's Catherine gave Vincent many chances to say, "No." But the author did not. I'm not sure how to talk clearly about this distinction. In a scene like this, where the author obviously does not want Catherine to come across as seductive or manipulative, it can be a great temptation for the author to say in exposition, "This is not seductive or manipulative," even as the character behavior, apart from that explanation, could easily indicate otherwise. In this case, the action progresses according to the author's designs. The characters follow the plot. Catherine pushes, Vincent does not resist. Catherine pushes some more, Vincent acquiesces. Catherine pushes even more, Vincent is "liberated" and responds in kind. I confess I'm of the school of writerly thought that finds plot-driven stories unauthentic. This story has to change the characters of the TV show to get them to do what the author (and her target readers) want to see them doing.
Not to beat a dead horse here, but again, this is why discussion is important, and to demonstrate the interweaving of mythology with story of the show. When many (most) view the mythology stopping with the name of the show, perhaps some lip service to the underlying theme (beauty within), there cannot be anything but a different interpretation.when they posit variations of the characters who do not think, speak, or behave like the originals, I cannot trust any of their conclusions about the meaning of the original story.
I'm guessing you are heavily influenced by your INFJ type in this respect!I'm more likely to rebuild the whole damn wall.
Expand, please?When introverts do share, extraverts are apt to discount the value and content of the communication because the patterns of expression differ from those which extraverts prefer (as I believe much of fandom does with characters like Vincent and Father).
The thing about my view of the show regarding mythology is that the original storytellers held similar views. This isn't Zara + a scattered minority versus the rest of fandom. This is THE SHOW itself. If that has never entered into the inner worlds of other fans, well, I guess that's what happens when real fantasy (not comic book stuff) airs via a mainline TV distributor. Many people simply don't know what to do with it.Pat wrote:I confess that this never occurred to me, as I'm not sure I ever really knew it. From your explanation, however, I can see how this applies to your view of the show and mythology. I think many, if not most, in fandom do not apply the mythology to the show, certainly not with the knowledge you bring to it. I did not, until my encounter with you. So, many stories are not going to ever approach the mythology aspects. Reason enough for the importance of discussion, IMO. Yet, I think it can be important to allow a platform for the less mythological, at least as a means of reaching more people, and to gradually introduce them to the mythology as a way of expanding their understanding.Zara wrote:my main objection to it[lap-sitting] is that it seems to be a breach of cultural protocol, for both characters of the TV show ... The romance between Vincent and Catherine is a chivalric one.
...Not to beat a dead horse here, but again, this is why discussion is important, and to demonstrate the interweaving of mythology with story of the show. When many (most) view the mythology stopping with the name of the show, perhaps some lip service to the underlying theme (beauty within), there cannot be anything but a different interpretation.
I'm going to take a stab at this from the disability angle over in "We Who Are Not As Others"...Sobi wrote:The nagging question for me is always the same: why 90 percent of fans see Vincent and Catherine *that* way? What is it that I don't see, in the episodes, that make so many people see Vincent as the whining, dumb mess that they depict in fanfic? And plainly ignore the doubts of Catherine about their life together, which instead are all over the place?
Ditto on the disability stabbing. This impression is based upon an assumption of how freaks surely MUST think of themselves...because it's easier to look at an atypical person and think, "He does not accept himself," than to realize that what we perceive in that Other person's presence is a reflection of our own unsavory attitudes. "I do not accept him." Everything else becomes a complex of rationalizations and subtle distortions of perception to avoid examining one's own prejudices in this regard. As you say, "How often have we, in relationships of our own, heard and felt incorrectly, yet found it hard to adjust to the clearer understanding (if we indeed ever get there)?"Pat wrote:...and I think there is perhaps an initial impression that Vincent doesn't see himself acceptable in a relationship...
Most likely.Pat wrote:I'm guessing you are heavily influenced by your INFJ type in this respect!Zara wrote:I'm more likely to rebuild the whole damn wall.
Maybe it's a copout of sorts, but I'm going to link to a couple resources here and let them speak for me today.Pat wrote:Expand, please?Zara wrote:When introverts do share, extraverts are apt to discount the value and content of the communication because the patterns of expression differ from those which extraverts prefer (as I believe much of fandom does with characters like Vincent and Father).