*Zara murmurs, Perhaps it depends on how one defines sex life...*Kari wrote:...which makes his lack of a sex life with Catherine even more sad...
Anyway, a thousand welcomes, Kari. You bring up great, great questions.
I found Sobi's idea (that the whole thing was a dream, from the opening until right at the end when Vincent wakes up) very intriguing, and it is certainly making more sense to me the more I think about it. Those characters seemed very off to me, and I can't believe the writers are that bad (yes, Zara, they did use the "It's a Wonderful Life" technique, but still giving them the benefit of the doubt!). Assuming it's all a dream gives more license to bend the characters.Kari said: Now, as for the comments here about Jamie and Pascal and Mouse and Father acting strangely:
I agree they are acting differently. But why?
I did not notice this. I swear, whether I've watched an episode 5 times or 50 times, I still find out something new that I missed!Sobi said: Did you notice that it's only in this nightmare that V is found "in the garbage", behind St Vincent's hospital, while all the other times it's mentioned in the other episodes, they just found him "near" the hospital? It’s his fear to having been rejected that is speaking there.
The tritest answer is that it is in the dialogue and sounds important: Remember Love!Sobi said: I confess I never understood what the heck the title means. Help?
So, we have another aspect to the Balance that is Vincent: balancing his life with Catherine with his life with the tunnels. I agree, it is a balance to strike with the two of them, and with love! Nicely said!Sobi said: Why did Catherine kill him, in the end? A plot device? Not only, I think: it's the reply to his soul searching: there is no life for him, if C is not the other part of his soul. BUT also the tunnel dwellers in Paracelsus version killed him, as if there were no life for him beyond the tunnels in the version he knows. So?
So, Catherine, the true Catherine, kisses him awake, and the dream remains just a dream, which points out the choices he has to make, but he has to make them awake. And the two of them. With love.
Ah, yes. I meant this to convey from Vincent's perspective that perhaps Father was a bit heavy handed in the moral lessons department, and to have put this in the extreme to show that Vincent has wants, and may wish to put himself above others to have those wants when it may be possible without depriving others.Zara quoted me: - came from: "VINCENT-FATHER - Wanting something for yourself? You must put yourself last. Humility always, eh?"
Granted, but uncertainty is not the same thing as not being safe. Again, the cost framework speaks to me of a final assessment, which cannot be made without other info. But deem it costly if you must!The dream derives its tension from the genuine uncertainty involved.
Looking over your framework and your statements, Force-field Analysis popped into my head. The whole thing can occur internally, but even a dream can see outside threats more clearly, sometimes, or suggest interplay with an outside element where none exists, bringing to mind the larger question, why?. But, it is your construct, and I shouldn't tinker. (putting tools away)I had not thought of structuring the scene summary this way. But I'm also not thinking in terms of internal/external forces. If it's a dream, it's all internal.
For people who are not considered full human beings by upperworld society, uncertainty Above poses a terribly grave danger.Pat wrote:Granted, but uncertainty is not the same thing as not being safe.
You can ask... Just remember, in this episode I'm being challenged as much as you, because I'm working with someone else's interpretation for the sake of learning a new angle of the story. Myself, I maintain a private interpretation that I'm saving for a fanfiction tale, someday...Pat wrote: May I ask you to do your framework on the rest of the show?
I expect to hear all about it at the con, where I will remain tight-lipped about what I hear!Myself, I maintain a private interpretation that I'm saving for a fanfiction tale, someday...
For the record, I don't think my way is shorter. It's just...highly condensed.Pat wrote:Your way is much shorter than mine!
Could you explain more about the choice? I understand resisting dark thoughts/feelings. What I am not clear how you see things is in the 'inmost haven of light.'Action = Vincent suffers the exhausting emotional backlash after his dream of risky change is utterly extinguished
Costly Choice = Vincent decides to resist his dark thoughts and feelings at the expense of damaging/deranging his inmost haven of light
Motivation = One of Vincent's chief priorities is to fend off despair whenever it encroaches upon his peace of mind; here he finds that his anger is insufficient to ward off the effects of grief and a fear of self-betrayal, so the core of Vincentself provides a rescue by riddling him deeper into his psyche, in order to refocus Vincent's energy into a different outlet for personal growth....
Vincent's chamber is his sanctuary, his safe place, and his personal venue for hospitality among his people. As an inmost haven of light, this space is where he rests and recharges when he needs to. Where he is best equipped to offer restoration, peace, and courage to others in need. The battle he wages against darkness (represented by the destruction and disarray of his furnishings) disrupts the serenity of his sanctuary.Pat wrote:Could you explain more about the choice? I understand resisting dark thoughts/feelings. What I am not clear how you see things is in the 'inmost haven of light.'
Encroaching despair. I see this in the majority of episodes when Vincent faces terrible dangers. Vincent clings to hope and to life with ferocious tenacity. "No Way Down," "An Impossible Silence," and "Shades of Gray" especially come to mind. In these episodes and others, Vincent wields his optimism with beautiful emotional dexterity.Pat wrote:What leads you to conclude that a chief priority of Vincent's is to fend off despair?
An interesting question, but I'm sorry I miscommunicated my point. I see that I did not build in enough connections into the outline of Scene 2...Pat wrote:As I read this, the thought popped into my head that perhaps Vincent sees this dream as a warning, and while you indicated in the earlier scenes he was wanting to move the relationship at a faster pace (were that it happened!), the dream calls him to again hesitate and slow down the relationship after Catherine has made the commitment to him. Is the relationship turning too real for him to handle at this time?
No. I tried to indicate that Vincent's psyche feels ready for a new growth spurt in the direction of adventure and novelty. My outline does not address Vincent's real-world relationship with Catherine. The psyche-pieces talking to Vincent bring up the issues of curiosity, fun, joy, and personal growth in Vincent's capacity to risk his present well-being in the hope of gaining future well-being. Remember, Dream-Catherine isn't Catherine, just as Dream-Father isn't Father. I took a shortcut in writing about "the community he loves" and "the woman he loves," assuming that these phrases could stand in for what "Catherine =" and "Father =". I'll try to fix that in my next chunk of roadmap.Pat wrote:...you indicated in the earlier scenes he was wanting to move the relationship at a faster pace (were that it happened!), the dream calls him to again hesitate and slow down the relationship after Catherine has made the commitment to him.
Okay, maybe it's our differences at play here, but I did read the growth spurt to include the relationship itself. And I think it plays well in the analysis you've written so far.No. I tried to indicate that Vincent's psyche feels ready for a new growth spurt in the direction of adventure and novelty.
While I don't disagree with this, and I know we are considering the other characters who appear as pieces of Vincent speaking to himself, I am not sure why you are discounting the relationship which is so core for Vincent and the show. For something he never expected to have in his life, and little experience in, isn't the relationship something about which issues of curiosity, fun, joy, and personal growth apply? And does not th relationship represent risk and gain to his future well-being?The psyche-pieces talking to Vincent bring up the issues of curiosity, fun, joy, and personal growth in Vincent's capacity to risk his present well-being in the hope of gaining future well-being.
Perhaps we are both not communicating well. I know so far this week has not been a good one, so I am not likely in my best form. And perhaps I am anticipating the next segment too much. (Remember my relationship with patience?) I would also point out that I was asking questions around one scene description, mostly, so your outline is not so floundering in my book.I fear I am failing