Remember Love

Question and answers, musings and thoughts...

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Maclurv
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Re: Impressions

Post by Maclurv »

From the episode Song of Orpheus:

then I came to know someone who had
every reason to curse fate, to feel punished
and yet he accepted all that life had to offer
with gratitude and love.


This is a quote I love from this show, said about Vincent, and I believe it says a lot. I like that it came from Father also. But it makes me wonder about a few things. Warning: I have been watching Remember Love with the Sunday/Wednesday groups.

What I wonder about: given this is Father's perspective about Vincent, how does Father reconcile his contribution to Vincent perhaps feeling punished from his admonitions of safety, in particular to this episode, he denies Vincent the right to make the trip to Connecticut. While Father acknowledges wanting to do something similar to what Catherine has proposed, he forbids it for the sake of the community.

Vincent then tells Pascal :

But to live as fully as we can,
there are risks we must take.


So Vincent is willing to assess the risk in order to live as fully as he can, fully knowing the trip is not the same for nearly anyone, yet grateful for the opportunity for the experience, and for the chance to do something for Catherine that is within his power.

And Pascal replies:

This is a risk for all of us. And if anything
should happen to you...I don't know, I don't
want to think about it, but...it would be awful.


This whole episode (RL) confuses the heck out of me. I don't think Father is his normal self in it, nor do I think Pascal and Jaime are acting particularly normal either. I contrast Pascal in this episode with his behavior in To Reign in Hell, where Vincent is again going on a dangerous, very risky journey, and no one forbids that, and Pascal insists on coming along. So this behavior seems to me to be more like Pascal than the behavior in RL. It is supposed to be a dream, but when does it start? Are the characterizations then Vincent's, and how he sees his friends, Father, in an exaggerated way?

Accepting all life has to offer has to mean more than just what Father or the community will allow.

Rough musings on a new topic,

Pat
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yes, it's a dream

Post by 222333 »

*
I moved this post of yours from "Impression" and opened a new topic, Pat.

This episode confuses the heck out of me too, but for a completely different reason. *Everyone* understands that’s weird and characters are out of character. So, why is it so difficult to accept what Vincent says: “It was a dream, a terrible dream”, instead of trying to make those absurd behaviours fit?
I remember the first time I saw it – it was… “What??!” until he woke up. At this point, everything made sense. The “real” episode started then, all the rest until that moment was a dream. And an interesting glimpse into Vincent’s psyche, yes, how he sees his friends, Father, in the exaggerated/partial way typical of a dream. From this point of view, it’s such an interesting episode for me!
It comes after A Happy Life, when Catherine runs into his arms. She's his now. And now it's his turn to be "a man living in the Tunnels, and trying to be happy"...

S

p.s. - here is what I usually write about this Episode, just for reference:
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=171&p=1555&hilit=psyche#p1555
Maclurv
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Re: Remember Love

Post by Maclurv »

I wondered about starting a new topic. Thanks.

all the rest until that moment was a dream


I have heard many different proposals as to the starting time of the dream, but I have not heard it all being a dream, that is, that even the conversation at the falls was part of the dream. What an interesting idea!

And an interesting glimpse into Vincent’s psyche, yes, how he sees his friends, Father, in the exaggerated/partial way typical of a dream


Yes, and so to his view of Catherine. At the falls, he sees her trying to fulfill his wish to see the sunshine, meadows, etc. So, not only does she fulfill his wish to have love, his dream of her extends her fulfilling his every wish.

Father is interesting in the dream perspective. We always see Vincent responding with such patience and tolerance, for everyone, and also with Father, especially as he tries to flex the restraints that Father reminds him about for his own good and safety. So here, we hear Father's voice being more strident than it is normally. And we see Vincent speaking up for his wishes more than we normally see him.

And when interacting with Pascal, Mouse, and Jaime, perhaps we are seeing Vincent's underlying fears or concerns that too many have a voice in what his choices are, and that he fears he has become too important to the community, that they need to learn to stand on their own if the community is to succeed in the long run. It must be about all of them, and not one man.

So why did Vincent have this dream? I like your statement:

now it's his turn to be "a man living in the Tunnels, and trying to be happy"...


Here is Vincent working through his purpose, his goal of happiness, resolving his place in this world and his right to love Catherine without the benefit of the good doctor that Catherine had.

I rather like your view of the entire episode as a dream!

Pat
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Zara
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Re: Remember Love

Post by Zara »

Here's a thought to tack onto Sobi's interpretation (which is the only interpretation I've found that makes sense to me, by the way, for I so dislike the It's a Wonderful Life junk)...

One theory of dream interpretation holds that in a dream, every figure you encounter, from the landscape to the characters, is a piece of your own psyche. In a dream, these psyche-pieces experiment and interact and show you new dimensions of yourself. They point out questions you are asking, or need to ask, conflicts and resolutions you need to think about, answers you need to consciously discover and apply.

What happens to the story if we stop trying to analyze external characters through the lens of Vincent's dream...and ask instead what each psyche-piece has to say about Vincent himself? Not what he believes or feels about other characters, but what he believes and feels about himself. Let the other characters be mirrors to the Beast for a change. ;)

Curious,

Zara
Maclurv
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Re: Remember Love

Post by Maclurv »

Lunch break!

What happens to the story if we stop trying to analyze external characters through the lens of Vincent's dream...and ask instead what each psyche-piece has to say about Vincent himself?


Okey dokey! Here goes:

Catherine's role in the dream points to Vincent's conflict within himself toward growing the relationship, and his ability to give her what he can/ and or feel she needs in order to be fulfilled should her decision be to make a life with him.

Father's role in the dream points to Vincent's need to form a new relationship with his parental figure, a more adult relationship, such that he can feel more comfortable voicing his concerns about assessing for himself the risks of his decisions.

I think my statement about Pascal, Mouse, and Jaime, fits in this sense:

And when interacting with Pascal, Mouse, and Jaime, perhaps we are seeing Vincent's underlying fears or concerns that too many have a voice in what his choices are, and that he fears he has become too important to the community, that they need to learn to stand on their own if the community is to succeed in the long run.


I would add that, in general, the dream reflects Vincent's questioning his self-purpose, a 'why am I here?' question. It could also reflect the struggle Vincent has in living a life with the constraints that he has, wondering if it is worth it, what difference would it make if he had not been born.

And what is the role of dream Catherine, the guide? Does she represent how he sees Catherine at this point in their relationship? She reminds him:

We're all on the same journey.
We create that journey for each other.

VINCENT
I don't know what to believe.

ANGEL
Yes, you do.

ANGEL
Remember love.


Is this Vincent trying to believe what Catherine tells him, that she loves him? That however he views her, she is saying she is his, and it is his need to accept that to move forward.

Pat

PS
I so dislike the It's a Wonderful Life junk
My warning re Remember Love was for you, Zara!
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Zara
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Re: Remember Love

Post by Zara »

I'm going to push a little here, and invite you to go deeper. And it's fine if that's not where you wish to go. :)

Zara wrote:Not what he believes or feels about other characters, but what he believes and feels about himself. Let the other characters be mirrors to the Beast for a change.


Each Dream-Catherine is Vincent (and, accepting Sobi's understanding of this episode, there are three Dream-Catherines!). Dream-Father is Vincent (two Dream-Fathers). Dream-Pascal is Vincent (again, two of them). Dream-Paracelsus is Vincent. Dream-Mouse is Vincent (two Mouses). And so on. These would be the psyche-pieces, the reflections of separate facets in Vincent's self, wearing masks of the people he knows, in order to give us hints about the nature of each facet.

Dream-Vincent, then, would be the entire, whole, integrated identity interacting with the psyche-pieces, responding to his own reflections.

What happens when every conversation in the story gives us Vincent talking to Vincent about Vincent?

~ Zara
Maclurv
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Re: Remember Love

Post by Maclurv »

Whew! Now I understand what you meant. I am not sure I am up to the task. It will take much pondering, and it would perhaps be better if you take the lead, and I will react. Otherwise, this may take me a while. :D

Looking for a couch that will fit Vincent,

Pat
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Re: Remember Love

Post by Zara »

I doubt Vincent would accept a couch. His way is to stand quiet and motionless in the shadows. Nor would he want or need a Topside psychiatrist, not even Catherine's, and she found a good one. ;)

If you do wish to plunge in, take as much time as it takes to ponder, question, put ideas into words. No one's in a hurry. What if you go scene by scene? And slowly, so varied time-zones can join in. :) The transcript will show the scene divisions, if that helps. Our story begins: Dream-Vincent is reading Fern Hill, by Dylan Thomas. The poem inspires everything else that comes after, beginning with conversation #1...

~ Zara
Maclurv
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Re: Remember Love

Post by Maclurv »

Actually, that is what I had in mind doing. Glad to know I was on a good track!

Excuse me, but in my fantasy, Vincent is on my couch, reclining with his left knee bent up, leaning on his right hand, with those leather leggings on, and the cute leather cummerbund with the metal latch....

Huh?? Oh, yes, I'll dive in a bit this evening. :lol:

Pat
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Re: Remember Love

Post by Zara »

Pat wrote:Excuse me, but in my fantasy, Vincent is on my couch, reclining...


*chuckles*

~ Z
Maclurv
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Re: Remember Love

Post by Maclurv »

Okay. So I got intrigued. What I have done is a technique where the 'actual' conversation is on the left side column, and Vincent's thoughts as his alter-characters is on the right side column. The first part goes up until he enters his chamber. Well, so much for columns. I couldn't get a document to upload. So, the bolded character names are the alternate, in Vincent's head, conversation. This goes up to the point where Vincent heads to his chamber after talking with Father.

VINCENT'S VOICE
(Reading)
And as I was green and carefree, famous among the barns
About the happy yard...
...and singing as the farm was home,
In the sun that is young once only,
Time let me play and be
Golden in the mercy of his means,
And green and golden I was huntsman and herdsman, the calves
Sang to my horn, the foxes on the hills barked clear and cold,
And the sabbath rang slowly
In the pebbles of the holy streams.
All the sun long it was running, it was lovely, the hay
Fields high as the house,
the tunes from the chimneys, it was air...
And playing, lovely and watery
And fire green as grass.
And nightly under the simple stars
As I rode to sleep the owls were
bearing the farm away...

CATHERINE
It was beautiful. Why did you stop?

VINCENT-CATHERINE
Why do you keep reading about places you can never be?

VINCENT
Sometimes I...see it...all...so clearly. I used to come here when I was a child and wonder about such places. How it would feel to lie a meadow under the warm sun. Or see the night sky full of stars.

VINCENT
I want to see it! Why shouldn’t I see it? Am I not worthy of seeing all of God’s creations? Surely, there is somewhere I could go that would be safe enough for me, to allow me to feel the sunshine, to lie in a meadow and feel the grass.

CATHERINE
When I was a girl, we spent our summers at a lake in Connecticut. I had a secret place too, a glen. I would hide there, in the tall grass. And I felt as if I were the only person on Earth. Safe.

VINCENT-CATHERINE
I bet Catherine would know of such a place, in all of her travels.

VINCENT
Yes.

CATHERINE
And if I sat very still, the deer would walk by and not even see me. I could almost reach out and touch them. It seemed...enchanted. It seemed so far from the city, like a different world. It's only two hours away. I wish you could see it.

VINCENT-CATHERINE
Yes, I imagine she does, and it would be private, too, as people with wealth like their privacy. But you would have to travel at least 2 hours outside the city to get to that kind of place. That’s a ways beyond your safe place.

VINCENT
Oh...so do I.

VINCENT
I want to see it. I deserve to see it.

CATHERINE
If only we could be there.

VINCENT-CATHERINE
Do you really think so? Or are you just wishing again?

VINCENT
We are there. You're taking me with your words, showing me.

VINCENT
Maybe the words are enough. I can use my mind’s eye.

CATHERINE
I would love to share it with you. It seems so unfair. You, of all people, would appreciate how magical this place is.

VINCENT-CATHERINE
Catherine believes now that anything is possible. She could do this for you. She would like to do this for you. Would you let her?

VINCENT
Catherine...

VINCENT
No, I can’t. I’m being selfish.

CATHERINE
If you saw it, you would know, in an instant. And then it would be ours.

VINCENT-CATHERINE
If you had Catherine take you, you would have time together, alone, memories for just you and her.

VINCENT
I could want nothing more.

VINCENT
Time alone with Catherine. To really be together. That would be something. No one else competing for my time, asking for my help. Just us, together. She came back to me, for me. I should do this for her, for us.

CATHERINE
Maybe there's a way.

VINCENT-CATHERINE
She has the resources…

VINCENT
Please. Don't even...

VINCENT
Don’t even think about it. Nothing will come of it.

CATHERINE
All we really need is a way to get out of the city, and up there safely. A van! We could drive up at night. No one's even at the lake this time of year. Maybe we could really do it! Vincent, let me try to arrange it! If I can, will you go with me?

VINCENT-CATHERINE
…with her wealth, her connections, she can get this done! Why not? Why not let her try it? It would make her feel good to be helping you do something you’ve always wanted to do. She wouldn’t begrudge the money or time. But if she can pull it off, that means you would have to go. Are you sure you want to try this?

VINCENT
It's something I never even dared to wish for.

VINCENT
I’ve lived all my life with safety always in my head, in all my decisions. How can I be so daring now?

CATHERINE
To go there, to share that with you would mean so much.

VINCENT-CATHERINE
So you think it’s okay, because she would want you to do it. For her.

VINCENT
Then...we must try.

VINCENT
I could do this for her. It would please her. And it would please me. I’ll do it!

******

FATHER
Have you both gone completely mad?

VINCENT-FATHER
But of course you need Father’s approval. You always run everything by Father. But you know what he’ll say. Why do you bother?

VINCENT
Not at all.

VINCENT
This is not nuts! It's a valid idea with a plan!

FATHER
I cannot believe that you could seriously entertain something so foolhardy and dangerous.

VINCENT-FATHER
Haven’t you learned anything from Father all these years? Above. Is. Not. Safe.

VINCENT
You overstate the risk.

VINCENT
How many times have I been Above? And I still live! I'm still safe!

FATHER
Any risk is too great. Surely that's apparent. That Catherine could even suggest such a thing!

VINCENT-FATHER
You know Father never really trusts Catherine. Father sees danger everywhere. He will be upset if you go. After all he's done for you, you would do this to him?

VINCENT
An innocent dream, Father, born of love!

VINCENT
It’s just a trip to an isolated area! It’s only time! It's risks no one else! I need this, Father!

FATHER
An irresponsible dream born of selfishness!

VINCENT-FATHER
Wanting something for yourself? You must put yourself last. Humility always, eh?

VINCENT
No!

VINCENT
No! I can want things too! Everybody else does, why not me?

FATHER
Yes!

Yes. I know...because I've had the same dream for you myself, over and again, for so many years.

Ever since you were young, I've...I've wanted nothing more than to be able to show you the sun, the mountains. Things for which you have only words.

VINCENT-FATHER
Not according to Father!

He will work on you, he will make it seem more reasonable to stay than to go. He always does. And you always listen. Do you really agree, or do you just want to please him?

He knows what buttons of yours to push, what appeals to make, doesn't he?

VINCENT
This is not merely for myself, Father, but for Catherine as well. This is a chance for us. No more than a moment, the briefest moment. Free from the perils and the urgency of the time we share.

VINCENT
I want this for both of us. You have no right to make decisions for Catherine, or for me! This is my chance to feel more like a man, less like a caged and trapped animal!

FATHER
Vincent, your love for Catherine, and hers for you, is something that warms all of us.
But you have a responsibility beyond that. A duty to those down here in this community...who depend on you, who look to you for truth and strength. For hope and protection. Without you, their world would be a very dark place.

VINCENT-FATHER
Here it comes. The big argument. Duty to the community. You owe them everything, and they make you pay it back daily. It will never end, will it? And you know what your place will be, don’t you? You will be the head of this community after Father is gone, and it will never end, you will never get a moment’s peace. And you will be alone. Catherine can't take your crumbs forever.

VINCENT
And what about my responsibility to Catherine, who gives so much, and asks for so little? How can I deny her, Father?

VINCENT
What about my right to a life, to a love? Shouldn’t that be a consideration for all of you to take into account for me?

FATHER
Vincent, if I thought it were in any way possible...

VINCENT-FATHER
There is Father appearing to be so very reasonable again. Are you going to fall for it?

VINCENT
It is possible, and there are ways!

VINCENT
No! It CAN happen! It CAN be safe

FATHER
Nonsense! Supposing something goes wrong! Supposing you're discovered—

VINCENT-FATHER
You’ve been caught before. It wasn’t very pleasant. Maybe you are reaching too far…

VINCENT
Am I unable to fulfill even her slightest wish? Tell me, Father! Are we forever bound to accept a poem for a sunset?

VINCENT
But what I can do for Catherine is so little. How can she want me above those others? This could show her what I am willing to do for her, not just for me.

FATHER
Vincent. You cannot do this.

Vincent?
Vincent!

VINCENT-FATHER
Father will forbid this. Are you ready to stand up to him for Catherine? You can’t even say the words! How scared are you of Father’s disapproval?
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Zara
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Re: Remember Love

Post by Zara »

Nice! You work well when intrigued! :D Bolding is perfectly readable where columns are not available. I like the format and method you've chosen, Pat.

If I may, I'd like to perform two distillation processes. The first reflects the composite image that I receive from the characterizations you have created. The second offers (hopefully) a flash summary of how I am approaching "Remember Love" in the first two scenes of the episode. Fodder for further conversation.

So, on to your Dream-People...

Dream-Vincent:
  • feels entitled to a taste of life Above
  • has always wanted to enjoy life Above
  • is resisting a habit of refusal to let Catherine do good things for him
  • needs Catherine to give him the courage to dare to leave a place of safety
  • thinks of relationships as social transactions
  • does not think about safety and danger the way a hunted creature would think of these things
  • feels a secret resentment toward his father
  • thinks of himself as a caged and trapped animal who is trying to be a man instead
  • resents his community, his obligations, and his future prospects Below
  • suspects Catherine will abandon him unless he makes her happy
  • believes his community takes advantage of him
  • believes he is unworthy of Catherine's love
  • must convince himself to express his regard for Catherine
  • fears Catherine's freedom
  • fears his father
  • feels caught in a self-centered life that offers him few privileges

Dream-Catherine:
  • offers Vincent a Topside-style privacy that is superior in quality to the privacy of the Tunnels lifestyle
  • doubts Vincent's sincerity
  • believes anything is possible more than Vincent does
  • can grant Vincent happiness with her wealth and status
  • is on a mission to improve Vincent's self-esteem
  • trusts that the world Above will not harm Vincent
  • assumes that the world Above will not harm herself
  • does not overtly manipulate Vincent into capitulating with her designs for him, but asks pointed questions for Vincent to answer

Dream-Father:
  • does not trust Catherine
  • does not trust Vincent
  • regularly browbeats, deceives, and manipulates Vincent into submission
  • upholds a malign understanding of humility and self-love
  • seeks to imprison his son
  • does not love his son
  • deprives his son of freedom, self-determination, and happiness
  • wields the authority to forbid Vincent to do something

So in this internal dream-world, a heroic Liberator takes Catherine's shape, while a villainous Prohibitor takes Father's shape. Dream-Vincent is caught between them, and is afraid to refuse either of them. He seems confused about what he wants from life and struggles with wounded cowardice. I cannot tell whether he loves anyone, and doubt whether he maintains any positive regard for himself. The world Above offered by Vincent-Catherine is a neutral setting. Safety and danger are philosophical constructs being debated by Dream-Vincent and his psyche-pieces.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Flash Summary of "Remember Love"

Vincent = an integrated identity pursuing love, beauty, freedom, wisdom, and personal growth during a dreamtime journey

Landmarks:
  • Every character he meets along the way provides an essential truth about Vincent's identity
  • Every setting he enters activates a new challenge of identity for Vincent to explore
  • Every choice Vincent makes has a price and a consequence
  • Vincent's actions, reactions, and decisions during the journey reveal his priorities and motivations


Scene 1 - Chamber of the Falls:

Catherine = Vincent's wonder and curiosity about the larger world beyond the City of New York

Action = Vincent's curiosity gradually overrides his caution

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to satisfy his curiosity at the expense of his security



Scene 2 - Father's Chamber:

Father = Vincent's sense of connection and interdependence with his Tunnels community

Catherine (in absentia) = Vincent's power to risk his present well-being in the hope of gaining future well-being

Action = Vincent's stabilizing desire to belong to the underworld community he loves conflicts with his risky desire to belong to the upperworld woman he loves

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to nurture his relationship with the woman he loves at the expense of his relationship with the community he loves



Can you tell me about Vincent's motivations in each scene, based on the landmarks listed? Why does he make these choices?

~ Zara
Maclurv
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Re: Remember Love

Post by Maclurv »

Lot's to discuss. I like the idea of your distillation, however, the content is not necessarily accurate. This may be an artifact of the method, given short snippets of conversation in which to convey a broader point, and my lack of writing skills (or thought skills) to come up with appropriate conversation for the underlying issue I had in mind.

First:

Dream-Vincent:
feels entitled to a taste of life Above
In the larger sense of injustice that to keep anyone from experiencing life who possesses a good heart is unfair
has always wanted to enjoy life Above
has always wanted to experience sunshine, lying in the grass, lakes, mountains, etc.
is resisting a habit of refusal to let Catherine do good things for him
not a habit, but a concern for 1) safety and 2) independence by the community to make their own way and not depend or expect on the largess of others for other than necessities
needs Catherine to give him the courage to dare to leave a place of safety
not to get courage from Catherine, but perhaps to find reason enough in his own mind to engage in the argument with Father to do something with risk that he knows ahead of time what Father's reaction will be
thinks of relationships as social transactions
not sure what you mean by this
does not think about safety and danger the way a hunted creature would think of these things
I don't think of Vincent as a hunted creature, as to be hunted, one must be known about to be on the lookout for, or have been spotted, and then trailed. When he was careless (in NIBAC, upset after closing the relationship with Catherine for her to go to Providence, he was caught; this would be a planned event, every consideration for safety made that could be made.)
feels a secret resentment toward his father
Not resentment, per se, more a chafing against. Parental concern on one side, establishing boundaries that the adult child feel either no longer necessary or needlessly restrictive, and the adult child desiring to establish new boundaries with adult understanding of his personal issues and decision-making acknowledged.
thinks of himself as a caged and trapped animal who is trying to be a man instead
sees himself as caged and trapped Below (his tomb comment toward the end of season 2, eg) and see first statement above and I believe he does see himself as more human than animal, most of the time.
resents his community, his obligations, and his future prospects Below
resents the expectations thrust upon him with what seems as little choice on his part
suspects Catherine will abandon him unless he makes her happy
he knows what Catherine must sacrifice to make the decision to tie her life with his and does not wish to present any more detractions to himself, his life, Below, that he must so that her decision can be made on the most realistic knowledge and assessment of those things
believes his community takes advantage of him
yes, at times, they do and I am sure he does
believes he is unworthy of Catherine's love
see above comment under Catherine abandoning him
must convince himself to express his regard for Catherine
since he mostly goes with more indirect references (poetry, flowers, etc), then what better way than to allow her the pleasure of organizing such a gift for him
fears Catherine's freedom
not sure where this one is coming from, but no, not fear her freedom but perhaps be a tad envious
fears his father
not fear, but in parent-child relationships there are patterns and scripts often followed, where topics or behaviors from one produce all to known reactions in the other, yet to disrupt the pattern is often more painful because it is rarely done with finesse at changing the pattern, so hurt is likely to happen on one or both sides. So the child often acquiesces, avoids, or whatever can be done to prevent the expected interaction. Vincent has heard safety all his life, probably ad nauseum. As if Father cannot believe Vincent has learned from him, and so must be reminded at every opportunity.
feels caught in a self-centered life that offers him few privileges
no, and not sure where this comes from in the conversation. He must focus on his life to an extent, that is, be safe. If dreams are considered privileges, then yes, few of those get fulfilled.

I do like Vincent, you know! You asked for some thoughts on what these other characters meant if it was Vincent talking to himself, so I tried to come up with something that could logically be tied into the original dialogue. I'm not saying I believe it all, just that it could be. I think I see him with a little more human frailty than you do, but I grant that he is one more head-screwed-on individual than I probably am. :D

Dream-Catherine:
offers Vincent a Topside-style privacy that is superior in quality to the privacy of the Tunnels lifestyle
only superior in terms of the privacy being located in sunshine, wooded areas, mountains, etc that are not available below and to which Vincent has dreamed of seeing for himself
doubts Vincent's sincerity
no, except perhaps when it comes to his (or Father's) sense of duty speaking for him
believes anything is possible more than Vincent does
no, but just having had AHL where she truly makes the commitment to Vincent and does believe that anything is possible, he sees this in her, coupled with his beliefs, believes that together, this could be possible
can grant Vincent happiness with her wealth and status
only in this instance, because of the type of arrangements needed (the cost) and the ability to arrange it in short order (who you know)
is on a mission to improve Vincent's self-esteem
because she is in love, she would like nothing better than to make his dreams come true, which could include walking anywhere he chose without the danger of being rejected/hunted for who or what he is (as Vincent himself has said, he cannot walk beside her and take her to places she is used to going)
trusts that the world Above will not harm Vincent
trusts that she can do everything she can to reduce the risk to an acceptable level, and has experienced others who have not harmed and even helped Vincent, so may choose to believe encountering those are more likely with precautions than without
assumes that the world Above will not harm herself
not at all, she herself has been harmed, but has done what she could to protect herself as well as she can
does not overtly manipulate Vincent into capitulating with her designs for him, but asks pointed questions for Vincent to answer
I guess I can agree with this, she is a lawyer!

Dream-Father:
does not trust Catherine
he does grow to trust Catherine, but as this is Vincent speaking, he may believe in times of stress for Father that distrust creeps back into his thinking
does not trust Vincent
see parent child discussion above; letting go is hard, or so Vincent may be thinking :D
regularly browbeats, deceives, and manipulates Vincent into submission
uses parental tools to get his point across and see above comments
upholds a malign understanding of humility and self-love
not sure where this is from, but I would say that one person's definition for themself is not necessarily that of another, so that Vincent may think that what Father would want him to do out of humility comes across differently to Vincent
seeks to imprison his son
seeks to keep his safe, and in Vincent's mind, may be a bit too cocooned in his attempts
does not love his son
does love his son, but is not a perfect man or parent
deprives his son of freedom, self-determination, and happiness
infringes upon his son's freedom, self-determination and by those instances, perchance his happiness; not all the time, but has his moments
wields the authority to forbid Vincent to do something
yes, he can forbid Vincent as either a parent or as leader of the community; that doesn't mean that Vincent complies.

I do like Father, too! I did read a quote from Roy recently (in the early, if not first year of the show) where he freely admits he is the fly in the ointment in Vincent and Catherine's relationship. So I don't think my imagined conversation of Vincent's psyche perspective of Father is too out of line!

Perhaps I should acknowledge that this technique comes from the hidden conversations we are having in our heads when engaged with someone whereby we are telling stories to ourselves about what the other is saying, guessing at the motivation or reasoning behind what is being said. So, it isn't very often that we are making up positive stories! Perhaps you were meaning to come from the positive side, and if so, my apologies. With Vincent as such an enlightened character, it was fun for me to imagine the more shadowy side.

So given all the above caveats, I can somewhat agree with Catherine being seen as a liberator here, and Father the prohibitor. I don't agree with the cowardice, rather would say he is torn between two people he loves, and wanting to do right by each of them when it is virtually impossible to do so.

I like your framework, but I would not have come up with that on the basis of what you asked. :)

Scene 1 - Chamber of the Falls:

Catherine = Vincent's wonder and curiosity about the larger world beyond the City of New York

Action = Vincent's curiosity gradually overrides his caution

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to satisfy his curiosity at the expense of his security


I am not comfortable with either your phrasing (costly choice) or conclusion. We do not have the information necessary to know his security would be purchased at the cost of going. Vincent roams far and wide over the city, in populated areas, and causes Father to worry, but not to react in such a harsh manner as envisioned by dream-Vincent. So without knowing exactly what plans Catherine puts together, I am less inclined to agree with the choice.

Scene 2 - Father's Chamber:

Father = Vincent's sense of connection and interdependence with his Tunnels community

Catherine (in absentia) = Vincent's power to risk his present well-being in the hope of gaining future well-being

Action = Vincent's stabilizing desire to belong to the underworld community he loves conflicts with his risky desire to belong to the upperworld woman he loves

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to nurture his relationship with the woman he loves at the expense of his relationship with the community he loves


I am beginning to think that Internal/External Forces might be a better label than Action, and Decision for Costly Choice. The adverb must wait for the outcome to judge whether it is costly or not. And I would rephrase the Decision thusly:

Vincent decides to nurture his relationship with the woman he loves rather than his relationship with the community he loves

Can you tell me about Vincent's motivations in each scene, based on the landmarks listed? Why does he make these choices?


I'm not sure I can, but here goes. In Scene 1, I can surmise that Vincent sees in Catherine an ally to help him, much as Devin was a help, to make it possible to experience what here-to-fore has been only a dream. She is a lawyer, he knows her mind, so to have her think of possible ways to go safely means something to him. So he is ready to let go a bit of his personal control to her to make a dream possible.

In Scene 2, I would consider this a more normal motivation of cultivating a new balance in his life as before he mostly had relationships with the community, and now has a relationship with a woman. So there are times when one will be chosen over the other when there are conflicting needs, wants, or desires.

Pat
Kari
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:33 pm

Re: Remember Love

Post by Kari »

First, I need to say that as a result of the last two weeks of Skype I am now in favor of the idea that Vincent did not really break the window in his chamber before he fell asleep. For the past quarter of a century I have just thought of that as a "whatever" moment where we just imagine that he didn't break the window even though he really did. I have really and honestly been pissed at (Let's blame Ron Koslow again, shall we?) them for making me imagine something inside of an imaginary program. I mean, isn't it enough that we are taking time out from our lives to imagine a society of people in the New Your tunnel system? Now we have to use extra brain power to make believe Vincent didn't make a mess with his bedroom when he clearly did?! I wish I could have done that with my kids when they had a meltdown and ruined their rooms.
But some things you just have to let go...

That's why this line of questioning has intrigued me so much. Maybe it is possible that Vincent was "falling into his dream" when he imagined himself breaking the window. Maybe he was so angry with life that he imagined himself destroying things. Maybe he has much more actual self-control than he thinks - which makes his lack of a sex life with Catherine even more sad, which, I think we have all agreed on numerous times.

Now, as for the comments here about Jamie and Pascal and Mouse and Father acting strangely:
I agree they are acting differently. But why? Is it because the episode writer and director didn't know what they were doing to the continuity of the characters? Or was it that the threat was so different than what they were used to?
People like to feel safe. they like to feel secure in the idea that everything will continue in the same way it has always been. The liked that they could depend on Vincent always being there for them, whether to talk to or physically protect. What would happen to their security if Vincent would decide he could live above with Catherine? Their lives would be altered in a way they were not expecting, and people don't like changes like that.
If they were only considering Vincent's safety in their apprehensiveness, then that would make me mad. Those people know that their friend - someone they love - hangs from a building every time he goes to see Catherine! That is definitely dangerous! As far as I am concerned, the people of the Tunnels don't make a single move toward making Catherine feel especially welcome in the Tunnels to the point of convincing the couple to move their romance down into the tunnels instead of having their friend hang off a building!
I know, I know, this episode right here has always been used as a prime example of how the couple is bringing their romance into the Tunnels. But whose idea was that? Did the Tunnel dwellers arrange for Vincent and Catherine to have time below so their friend would be more safe? No, they did not. Do they casually accept that Vincent is going to see Catherine for a pre-arranged date on her balcony? Yes, they do. And by the way, I am not referring to those unforeseen circumstances where Vincent pops up to the balcony, urgently needing Catherine's assistance. Although, in even most of those cases, someone could go to Catherine at her apartment and tell her Vincent needs to see her immediately. I know it would look somewhat like a "summons from Vincent the Great" but that would actually be safer (if safety was the prime concern) than having Vincent either be seen hanging on a building or falling to his death.

Another thing about their "comfort zone" is that they feel comfortable letting Vincent go off and do their dangerous and bloody work for them. I know lots has been written about the community letting Vincent risk his own life while they seem to literally sit by and do nothing. I agree. They have these laws that nobody is supposed to hurt anybody, but then Vincent declares he is going to do something and they support him. My question, as it relates to this discussion, is, "Whys the topic of Vincent almost getting killed by getting killed by protecting all of them so much less disconcerting to them than Vincent getting found above?" I believe he would probably be tortured longer above, but death is death. If they are that worried about his safety, they should look at their own ways of not keeping him safe in the tunnels.
On a side note: If they let Vincent not adhere to their laws to do no harm to outsiders, are they doing it simply because they think of him as their next leader and they are following him now as they would later? If they are seeing him as their next leader, why aren't they doubling their efforts to keep him safe even in the Tunnels? Or is this one of those things from a the old days where the king is the one to lead the people into battle?
User avatar
Zara
Posts: 596
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:53 am

Re: Remember Love

Post by Zara »

Thank you, Pat!

This is why I sometimes like to paraphrase what I receive from others' messages, so that you can have the chance to clarify and correct my impressions. I make no pretense of being unbiased. ;)

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To respond to those out-of-the-blue components...

Pat wrote:fears Catherine's freedom
not sure where this one is coming from, but no, not fear her freedom but perhaps be a tad envious


- came from the comparisons and contrasts between your Dream-Vincent's "safe place" and his "wishing"

Pat wrote:feels caught in a self-centered life that offers him few privileges
no, and not sure where this comes from in the conversation. He must focus on his life to an extent, that is, be safe. If dreams are considered privileges, then yes, few of those get fulfilled.


- came from the Dream-Vincent calling himself selfish and envying Catherine's privileges

Pat wrote:upholds a malign understanding of humility and self-love
not sure where this is from, but I would say that one person's definition for themself is not necessarily that of another, so that Vincent may think that what Father would want him to do out of humility comes across differently to Vincent


- came from: "VINCENT-FATHER - Wanting something for yourself? You must put yourself last. Humility always, eh?"

...Did I miss any?

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Pat wrote:I like your framework, but I would not have come up with that on the basis of what you asked.


I know. :) That's why I asked in as open-ended a way as I could. So everyone could stay free to follow her own techniques.

Pat wrote: We do not have the information necessary to know his security would be purchased at the cost of going.


Nor do we have the information necessary to know his safety could be as assured and protected as it is in the Tunnels. There are no precedents for Vincent living far away from the Tunnels, even for a short-term duration. The dream derives its tension from the genuine uncertainty involved.

Pat wrote:I am beginning to think that Internal/External Forces might be a better label than Action, and Decision for Costly Choice.


I had not thought of structuring the scene summary this way. But I'm also not thinking in terms of internal/external forces. If it's a dream, it's all internal.

Pat wrote:The adverb must wait for the outcome to judge whether it is costly or not.


But this story interpreter need not wait for the outcome. ;) So, I deem it costly, and count the costs.

Pat wrote:I'm not sure I can [describe Dream-Vincent's motivations], but here goes.


Your descriptions read reasonably to me, in light of the perspective you've illuminated earlier. Again, thank you for diving into the challenge!

My own take on Dream-Vincent's motivations...

Scene 1: Vincent trusts his strengths to preserve his self during risk-taking, and hopes for the reward of new opportunities for love and pleasure

Scene 2: Vincent wants to grow in a new direction, and at a new (swift) pace

~ Zara
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