<smiile>

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<smiile>

Post by 222333 »

*
I think I understand where you intend to lead the story, to the grand piano chamber, but I think Vincent would feel her before and remember their appointment.

And please don’t forget to correct my English. I know that my attempts can’t dream to pass for a fluid English paragraph!

S

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Re: <smiile>

Post by cindyrae77 »

Yes, I confess I was thinking they were about to miss the concert, or part of it.

I think not being able to help Rolley is staying with Vincent, the way it stayed with a lot of people from the eighties, when they had loved ones in the grip of something. Something they couldn't beat that was both 'consuming' their life and wasting it. Wasting not just their time, but their talents, and squandering the love that was offered to them by their families who stood hopelessly by. I think that is 'odd' for Vincent to face, in that he knows without the love Father and the other community members gave him, he wouldn't have survived/been able-be able to survive. And now there is Catherine's love. Even more reason to try and 'be better' or 'do better'. What is it about the drugs Rolley craves? Why that oblivion, rather than... than a grand piano in a secret chamber. A place he could make beautiful music all his life, and not waste his gifts?

Lost in his thoughts, I think he might not have sensed Catherine (since she wasn't in danger, nor particularly angry) until she got closer, so the scene you wrote stands just fine.

Rolley's misery is a bit contagious. Which is pretty much what happens to people who end up having to deal with addicts. You get very introspective and you ask yourself 'why?" a lot.

I don't think Vincent is used to being this helpless. Usually, when someone has a problem, the world Below can fix it, or try to. Their gentleness and compassion, or just the strength of his arm, 'fixes' many problems. Similar to the conversation we're having on the board about him, he's not a 'passive' character. He's an active one. Here, again, he's stuck in a 'passive' situation, and he doesn't like it. So he's turning it over in his mind, trying to figure out what he's missed, what it is he doesn't understand about all of this. Rolley holds all the cards. Is there nothing else that can be done? Does Catherine know?

Not sure where it goes from there. (Do we lead them to Isaac Stubbs and an intervention? Do we lead Vincent to 'accepting the things he can not change, and the wisdom to know the difference?" -Part of the Serenity Prayer from Alcoholics Anonymous.- Or do we just wrap it up in an 'indeterminate' place where he's sitting with her in the Music Chamber beneath the Band Shell, listening to the last concerto? When they look up, is Rolley standing there, maybe ready to accept help?

We'll have to see.

Something in me pictures Vincent at that huge, beautiful piano. Touching it. Wondering. It's the physical 'proof' that Rolley was once here, and was once possessed of an amazing talent. The waste of all that is 'crashing in' on Vincent, some. It bothers him. A lot, and maybe for reasons he can't even name, yet. Being impotent feels bad. Being unable to help a friend feels bad. Watching 'waste' hurts. Watching people not be grateful for the chances they're given would hurt someone like Vincent. And of course he's about to figure out Catherine had to pay Rolley to even speak to him, and that's going to sting.

As usual, I have too much, internally, going on in my little brain, and you might want to take this somewhere else, entirely!

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Re: <smiile>

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My idea when writing my last paragraph was just about what’s credible. I thought that from what we know, Vincent is very likely to sense Catherine longing for him and getting close to the hub, even if his thoughts were elsewhere. Perhaps suddenly, such as we normal people suddenly become aware of a sound in the background. Hence, Vincent [slapping his forehead and] hurrying to meet her. I have no further thoughts about where the story can go. It depends on what you’ll write.

It’s the beauty and perhaps the limit of this pattern of writing: to be depending on the other. As I told you earlier, I can understand that your way of thinking is such a flowing tide that this short pace may be restraining for you. If so, please don’t be afraid of saying it, okay? No hurt feelings at all!

Coming to think of it, that’s precisely what you wrote in your comment. The frustration of being powerless and have to wait for the other to do what you’d hope he/she would do. Perhaps hinting at it – in real life with real life prompts, in writing with writing prompts – but “passive” in a way, and only active in your own actions/paragraphs.

And me, I also have another way to identify with Vincent, inasmuch I am “different”, and no matter how much I try to be good in English, I’ll always be limited, uncertain about what I do/write, wondering if people accepts it because they love me or really what I do/write is fine enough to seem human/English…

*roarrr!*

S

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Re: <smiile>

Post by cindyrae77 »

Dear Sobi,

I am not frustrated by the 'give and take' of this style at all. (You mentioned on the BATB board that Vincent was stuck as a 'passive' presence in his own life, as he had very little to no power as to how to 'direct' the reactions of others, and he was understandably upset that Catherine's reaction to him might be negative. I thought that was a great observation, and brought it up, here.

Me? Dear love. I work with six year olds (about fifty of them, currently) all the work day long. My way of saying I have a lot of patience for certain things, and no, I'm not equating either you or your English with a six year old. (smile) Just that I am not bothered by things which do not move quickly. 'Seeing what is happening' (if that description makes sense) interests me. When you write with another person, you are 'seeing what is happening' in their beautiful mind. And discovering how different it is from yours, and how capable, and strong. You'll make me take this someplace I wouldn't have taken it had I been 'writing it alone.' That just plain fascinates me. The very act of 'nudging' or 'guiding' another person by how you take a story forces them to 'change their mind.' We will BOTH come up with a line, or a scene or a reaction that we didn't expect. It's the nature of the Beast. (no pun intended. Well, maybe a little one!)

You are hugely and massively more bilingual than I am. If we were trying this in Italian, we would be at a stand still. Your vocabulary, in English, is wonderfully able. That you are even willing to try this impresses me to no end. I could not do it. I would not know how, and even if I could do it on a very basic, plain and rudimentary way, it would in no way be the deft 'true to the story and characters' way you are managing it. To that end, you do not need 'correcting' near as much as you may think, my dear!

Big hugs,

Cindy

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Re: <smiile>

Post by 222333 »

Il 19/11/2014 12.32, Cindy Tidwell ha scritto:

> I love your insights into Catherine and 'the dream.' Love where you just took this.
> Huge hugs,
> Cindy

*
Thank you, but I just followed Catherine.
She's the one who took us there, in the final scene of Chamber Music:
VINCENT: Catherine, I feel as though I’ll never see him again.
CATHERINE: But he knows now that you’ll wait for him, that you love him. And as long as you do, Vincent, there’s hope.

Remember to correct my paragraphs! Thank you.

S

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Re: <smiile>

Post by cindyrae77 »

One tiny fix:

He looked at her, uncertain.

Should read: He looked at her, uncertainly. I would leave in the comma, also, for the natural pause it gives. But there are those who would say it is optional. So, it is also correct to type: He looked at her uncertainly.

Hugs!
Cindy

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Re: <smiile>

Post by cindyrae77 »

They had started to walk without even realizing they were doing it. The direction was vaguely toward the Hub, and Vincent’s arm almost reflexively sneaked around Catherine’s midriff, sustaining her, while she leaned against him. Easier for her to walk on her high heels that way, but not only. Her confident abandon against his powerful and possessive frame wordlessly affirmed that, whatever he was going to say about being afraid, he should definitely use the past tense. “Afraid to dream?”, she prompted.

Edits: "sneaked" is okay, but it implies he's being 'sneaky.' Sometimes people use the word 'snaked' instead. (An arm is like a 'snake' in that way, drawing around a waist.)

Also 'sustaining' might be a wrong word here. Do you perhaps mean 'steadying?'

'but not only' is a sentence fragment. 'but not only that?'

'Her confident abandon'... (sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. Perhaps elaborate the description, a little?)

Hugs!

Cindy

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Re: <smiile>

Post by 222333 »

*
Thank you!
I have edited my paragraph. See if it works now.

S

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Re: <smiile>

Post by cindyrae77 »

Yes, I think that clears things up just fine!

Cindy

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Re: <smiile>

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I'm not sure my last post didn't try to pull in 'too much at one time.' We've wandered (wonderfully) into discussing 'their dream' and 'dreaming.' Wanting. Making plans for the future that may or may not come to pass. Rolley is making none, Vincent is concerned about the ones he makes, and Catherine stands on the side of the angels, saying "You deserve Everything. Don't be afraid to want it," in AFAPK. I think Devin's leavetaking taught Vincent a hard lesson. (When they were boys, they used to dream together. But when Devin left, Vincent realized Devin had to do that, because none of Devin's dreams for adventure could come true if he stayed.

I think that's the lesson he's carrying, to Catherine. In the first blush of love, it's not something you'd register. But this is the beginning of S2, and Vincent has had time to realize that if she stays with him, the limits (there's that word again) of his life become part of hers, as well.

Then there's Rolley, who only finds dreams in a drug induced haze, since sober, he has none. Vincent may be fighting more than he realizes, in that Rolley may not want to come down because he may be afraid to give up the only way to 'dream' he has left. (and yes, that idea did just occur to me, just now.)

Chamber Music begins so beautifully, as an episode, yet ends on such a bleak/mixed note. In the beginning, we have Vincent as a lover, enjoying so much the reaction Catherine is having to the rain and the music. By the end, Vincent feels nearly impotent, (the opposite of 'lover.') unable to effect a change, for Rolley. And there's still the fact that Cathy had to pay Rolley to talk to him, though Rolley never collected the other half of the hundred.

That may come into this, too, depending on how long we decide to run it.

There's a Fleetwood Mac line running in my head from Stevie Nicks, "Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?" (From the song 'Dreams' which would have been popular for years before Vincent and Catherine met each other.) "Dreams of loneliness, like a heartbeat that drives you mad... In the stillness of remembering what you had... and what you lost."

Which may have nothing to do with anything, but 'tonally,' it's there, in my little brain, as we wander through this.

How much of Chamber Music might be about Loss, and what it takes to survive that? Rolley lost Miss Kendrick and lost his music in the same instant. Vincent lost Devin, and realized that was necessary, or Devin's dreams would never come true.

It's all becoming sort of a complicated, entwined dynamic.

For Vincent is 'to hold her' the same thing as 'to lose her,' in his head? Does he fear reaching for too much, given the consequences of failure? At THIS point in their relationship (never having made love, believing Catherine's chance at motherhood must rest with someone other than him,) is it so insane that he thinks her path must ultimately take her to someone else, while he still desperately wishes it could be him?

Does Vincent pay (in terms of sorrow) when other people have dreams? (Devin. Catherine, if she dreams of things he can't be part of)

Is what he's trying to tell Rolley something like "It's okay for you to 'dream,' here. We have no dreams for you about music, and you never have to play again, if you don't want to. Our dreams won't cost you, because we promise not to have any. You can come back and 'just be Rolley.' Less a dreamer, but saved, as a man."

All too much, I know. Most of it just occurred to me, as I say.

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Re: <smiile>

Post by 222333 »

*
I'll reply soon to this interesting post.

For now, duel-wise, I've just put the ball again in your yard... :mrgreen:

Ciao,
S

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Re: <smiile>

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*
I am grateful for your musings, and for sharing them with me. I won’t comment what I agree with. I will comment what I see in a different way. This:

For Vincent is 'to hold her' the same thing as 'to lose her,' in his head? Does he fear reaching for too much, given the consequences of failure? At THIS point in their relationship (never having made love, believing Catherine's chance at motherhood must rest with someone other than him,) is it so insane that he thinks her path must ultimately take her to someone else, while he still desperately wishes it could be him?


This is a popular take (Vincent keeping her at arm’s length for this), and probably it has sensible roots – which I don’t see. For me, there is a fundamental part of the equation that needs to be considered. That is, <smile> that they are in love with each other. With each other.

I mean: I certainly see that Vincent is wise/smart/intelligent/whateverTheAppropriateEnglishWordIs enough to understand that their relationships runs the risk of being unbalanced, for the “limits” he has to put on Catherine’s freedom to enjoy a different, normal life. And this fear, “it’s too much for her”, is the essence of the fundamental episode A Happy Life, written by Ron Koslow as the “happy ending” to the first season, faithfully following the fairy tale, when Beauty *chooses* Beast, and never falters again.

In Beast/Vincent, this fear resurfaces. Twice. In AFAPK and in AKBTS. Both prompted by other men appearing. Men he could not confront as the Alpha Male he is and say: she is *mine*. This fear is real, inasmuch founded on something realistic (ask any fan who madly drool over Vincent if they’d be willing to *really* go and stay with him Below) AND inasmuch this is THE fear for him, feeding in his frustration to be “more” for her, and passive in front of her making the decision to choose him again and again.

That said, and that considered, we must also consider that they are in love with each other. And love is made of a very high percentage of trust. Vincent trusts Catherine, and Catherine trusts Vincent. She made a fundamental choice, in AHL – I believe her, and I think Vincent too. The episode is bracketed between the weak “It’s worth it”, where you can almost perceive a final question mark, in that beautiful scene on C’s balcony at the beginning of the episode, when Vincent bluntly remembers her what it means to choose him, and the triumphant “It’s worth everything!” at the end of the episode.

And what evidences does Vincent have, after that fundamental, pondered, joyous affirmation, that she’s not trustworthy, after all? I can’t see any, in S2. Do you? I think that Vincent knows she IS trustworthy, accepts it, considers himself a lucky man for it. This does not assuage his frustration, but I don’t think that it brings him to *not trust* Catherine. Because, after AHL, they ARE a couple. And trust each other. In AFAPK, he certainly says that he’d try to rejoice if she found love with a fine man yadda yadda, but the point is that he says “I was unwilling to share your love with anyone”, which is seldom remembered. A perfectly legit lover’s desire. As Catherine points out.

Now, precisely “at this {glorious} point of their relationship”, that is, immediately after their “engagement” in AHL, when finally Catherine makes up her mind (CMu is the first episode after AHL in airing order, and the third in Production order), yes, I think that “it is insane that he thinks her path must ultimately take her to someone else, while he still desperately wishes it could be him”, just because she told him that she wants him in no uncertain terms. And you know what? I think that Vincent believes her. Because love IS a leap of faith, for any couple and for V&C too. If Vincent does not take such leap of faith, it means that he does NOT love Catherine. And I won’t even go into the Bond thing, which, I’m sure, corroborates what his heart knows without super-human evidences. A lover’s trust is enough, for me. Otherwise, that’s the point, if he’s always fearing to lose her, their relationship never *started*. See Sonnet 116: “love is not love…” <smile>

S

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Re: <smiile>

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*
First of all, I’m copying here your post you sent me privately, so that we can continue the conversation in one only place:

Please don't feel like you have to rush, at all. I know you are 'translating' as well as 'thinking' and that's a two step process for every one step I have to take. Believe me, if we were trying this in any language other than English, we'd still be back at the entrance to her basement!

I 'type fast,' Sobi, and I 'think fast,' and usually I think WHILE I'm typing, rather than say, planning it all out ahead of time in great detail, then executing that plan. It's just that 'thinking about a thing' causes in me to think MORE about it, and in finer detail. Sometimes, that's dangerous, as my fictions then wander into places I didn't intend them to go. Other times, it's great for me, because it's 'Oh! Didn't see that, before!"

For instance, (even though it might be obvious to other people) this is the first time I 'connected' chamber music with the word 'loss.' (On the obvious side, Rolley lost himself, Vincent lost Rolley. On the 'less obviouos side,' it BEGINS with a 'loss.' The concert is 'lost' to the concert-goers as they are inundated with rain. (note to self: Catherine changes that 'loss' into a gain for her and Vincent. Maybe that's her secret super power.- grin. After all, when her face was slashed, that 'loss' became a gain, too.)

Meanwhile, back at Chamber Music and Loss,

The concert itself is 'the Unfinished Symphony, and 'unfinished' is another kind of 'loss.' Miss Kendrick loses, in trying to help Rolley complete his gifts. Rolley has lost Anthony. Anthony has lost all. Old Eli sees how much 'loss' is claiming his neighborhood, Anthony, Rolley, and everyone involved. The Tunnel community lost Rolley and lost the music he brought, Father's guilty pleasure, back when he was Rolley parrot. As Rolley parrot, Miss Kendrick said he had 'an empty gift.' (A lost one.) Her attempt to bring him that gift in all its fullness ultimately resulted in her stumbling into Anthony and his gang.

Vincent looks 'hopefully' after Catherine, the night of the concert, promising to meet her. Then he meets Rolley, and is overwhelmed by all the 'loss' that is engulfing everyone. He's trying not to be 'touched' by it, (or at least not engulfed by it) but 'cost' and 'loss' are dearly personal topics, for Vincent, especially where Catherine is concerned. "The Dream of Being a Part of You" (pilot) elevates him, and makes his life resonate with meaning and with love. But sometimes when he looks at that dream, he sees what he saw in the pilot; impossibility of fulfillment, and 'loss' for Catherine, the farther they go. He's not glacially slow out of 'shyness,' but out of care. He desperately fears his 'dreams' will collide with her potential/ her other dreams - and he accepts such things by increments, as we know. This will become the line "Go with courage, and go with care," later. But back at the pilot, it was 'Find someone, Catherine. Someone to be a part of." He really wants that, for her. Because he sees it as a way for her to be happy, without 'cost' or 'loss.' (And yes. In the deepest place where he dreams, he wishes that person could be him. He's just afraid it can't be, because of the losses she'll incur if it is. So he 'dreams carefully.')

And back to Chamber Music some more...

So, a big part of him doesn't understand why Rolley won't 'jump at this chance' to come home After all, what does he have to lose?

But an addict's high is where all their dreams are. Having destroyed all else, those are the only dreams they have left. Being sober has no allure for Rolley, until he can see a better dream in the sobriety than he sees in the heroin.

So it's that Vincent is up against, without understanding it, yet. For Vincent, his one brush with drugs (Alchemist) was terrifying. He knows that's not true for Rolley, but he doesn't see why Rolley wouldn't embrace love. After all, Vincent knows how narrow and small his world would be without it, both the love of his family and the love of Catherine.

And yeah. I'm typing and thinking at the same time, again. And having a ball.

Love you!

Cindy

And then, I reply to a few parts of it.

For instance, (even though it might be obvious to other people) this is the first time I 'connected' chamber music with the word 'loss.' (On the obvious side, Rolley lost himself, Vincent lost Rolley. On the 'less obviouos side,' it BEGINS with a 'loss.' The concert is 'lost' to the concert-goers as they are inundated with rain. (note to self: Catherine changes that 'loss' into a gain for her and Vincent. Maybe that's her secret super power.- grin. After all, when her face was slashed, that 'loss' became a gain, too.)


That’s it. Without that final line of Catherine in tris episode, everything would be different. Chamber Music is all that you say, loss and everything, but… but it ends on the beautiful note of Hope, that Catherine points out as the undeniable result of that sad night. Hope made of relationships. “But he knows now that you’ll wait for him, that you love him. And as long as you do, Vincent, there’s hope.” A hope based on Vincent, not on Rolley, by the way. Pointing out the power of love.

Yes, I think that Catherine’s secret super power is this skill to see beyond the wreck – as a survivor herself who turned the most horrible of losses into… well, B&B.

Besides, it was pointed out that this episode bravely depicted the real world – an addict is an addict, happy ending is not credible. What’s credible is hope. The Unfinished Symphony that is Rolley may have a future, and in fact had a future, in Third Season. There is a happy ending after all, in ways you cannot fathom “during” the darkness. Not that I accept it in my universe, but it has a certain believable nobleness that of the trio on that roof in CMu, it’s Rolley the one who has the best happy ending if you look at the three seasons. His symphony gets finished, others are interrupted…

"The Dream of Being a Part of You" (pilot) elevates him, and makes his life resonate with meaning and with love. But sometimes when he looks at that dream, he sees what he saw in the pilot; impossibility of fulfillment, and 'loss' for Catherine, the farther they go. He's not glacially slow out of 'shyness,' but out of care. He desperately fears his 'dreams' will collide with her potential/ her other dreams - and he accepts such things by increments, as we know. This will become the line "Go with courage, and go with care," later. But back at the pilot, it was 'Find someone, Catherine. Someone to be a part of." He really wants that, for her. Because he sees it as a way for her to be happy, without 'cost' or 'loss.' (And yes. In the deepest place where he dreams, he wishes that person could be him. He's just afraid it can't be, because of the losses she'll incur if it is. So he 'dreams carefully.')


I’ll keep harping on the same idea of my previous post: I can (reluctantly, and very much on an episode by episode basis) accept this line of reasoning for the first season, which is basically dedicated to the journey to that final AHL, (so much that for the second season the writers’ dilemma was: “and now, what?”). But after AHL to me (to me, okay?) this way of thinking is an offence to Catherine. Sorry if I am too harsh. Chalk it to my weak English. Offence because of lack of trust in her, as I explained in my previous post, and offence because it’s a way to say: you just don’t see what’s good for you, poor unwise thing. I can understand if Vincent has fears about his relationship with Catherine (what lover can be absolutely sure that everything will go well in a love story?) but I cannot accept that he cultivates in himself this sad and offending mistrust. And especially, I don’t see evidences of it in the episodes!

Thank you for this beautiful conversation.
S

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Re: <smiile>

Post by cindyrae77 »

Ah, I see, and no you are not offending, and to a very real extent, you are right. On the board, we have been writing about "Terrible Savior" and since I have been thinking of Vincent in 'that place,' (Very, very early on) I clearly am letting that spill over into 'this place' which is much, much farther along in the series, and as you say, after AHL.

My brain is simply not as nimble as it should be, with regard to the 'development' of their relationship. (And yes, the opening scene of 'Chamber music' is utterly romantic, and he is 'thinking' Byron to her. ("She Walks in Beauty.") His eyes follow her leave taking, and there are few doubts as to his 'wishes,' even if we're not sure of his intentions, yet. (Or even if he has any. At this point, the fact that he will 'come for her on Thursday night' is enough.)

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Re: <smiile>

Post by 222333 »

*
I have the imprinting given by how I watched the episodes the first time. I did not get the first airing, but a rerun when they were broadcasted one at a day, for almost three months. They are fundamentally one only flowing story in my mind, running smoothly… well, almost. Will talk about those last horrible days another time.
So, it’s almost impossible for me not to consider the “development” of their relationship as a fundamental part of any discussion about the episodes. But that’s me. I can very well understand a different take, of course. It’s only that my way of talking about B&B is “marked” this way.

Yes, Chamber Music Is a beautiful, romantic episode. Even taken “per se”, without placing it in the flow of the story, there’s nothing in it that makes us think that Vincent is not just a man in love, no restrain or second thoughts, don’t you think?

S

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