<smiile>

cindyrae77
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Re: <smiile>

Post by cindyrae77 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:17 pm

My experience with watching BATB was much different. I watched the original episodes, caught some on VHS tape with my VCR, mourned the passing of the series, and oddly, had a hard time watching them again, because I knew it was 'gone.' There was no internet (at least for me) in those days, and very few people owned a computer. It was like other shows I had liked (only different, of course) in that it came, struggled to stay on the air, and was then 'gone.' Too soon, and harshly ended. I watched it all until the end, cheering for Vincent, and wishing for a magical resurrection of some kind, and also still finding it in me to like the character and actress who played Diana, (there, I said it,) and I also found Gabriel wonderfully evil, and written over the top in a couple of places, but still, we had to have somebody to replace Tony Jay, since like our Catherine, he seemed to be 'really dead.' (All typed with a very painful sigh which we will not dwell on.)

All is to say my exposure came at the 'one a week' variety, and sometimes not that, when the show was interrupted, which it seemed to be, from time to time. My 'taking in' of the relationship is somewhat differently colored, therefore. (That is not to say that you are not correct. Just that as far as I was concerned, it STILL took us all the way to "Orphans" for a real, non-spiritual kiss. And that was more a kiss of thanks than one of passion. It took until 'you know what' to hear Vincent tell Catherine "I love you." (Cathy had been tossing that word around since 'Shades of Grey' I think, and said it openly in The Outsiders.) At the time, I think I felt that AHL was just a ratings 'game' that got played on the audience. When S2 began, they seemed no closer physically, and no more apt to discuss a future together, (what its limits would be, what its potential, and so forth.) I knew this was '80's television.' That having the male and female lead 'break' the romantic tension in the relationship was all but the kiss of death, (no pun intended.) I'd seen that happen to 'Moonlighting.' The writers very literally seemed not to know what to do with David and Maddie after the big furniture breaking roll on the floor consummation scene. (Shrug)

For those reasons and others, I don't know that I 'parsed' the relationship into the S1- they're finding their way, S2- they seem to be committed now, so off we go. They were 'a couple' to me since the beginning, with weekly episodes feeding us some new drama, and a romantic 'entanglement' -a reason why the romance wasn't going to work- (Greg no name, Elliot, Providence, Elliot, again, Lisa, come S2, Elliot again, and so forth) every sweeps month or so. ("Sweeps month might be an American term. It the time BATB aired, it was in November, February and May, I think. Those were the months the networks used to peg how much commercial air time could sell for on their shows. The higher the ratings, the higher the income, for CBS and the other networks. Because of that, those months usually featured episodes with something 'extra.' A two parter, or a big villain, or a declaration of love, or... something.)

Since finding the fandom, I have rewatched several episodes/several pivotal scenes here and there, often to get 'what really got said' vs. what I remember being said' right. I watched the show in its original run and in reruns, and again, some. So your recollection and revelations about how the love story DID have moments of 'sorting itself out' are much clearer than mine, and I can see how watching the show on a 'daily' basis helped with that. My experience had no such 'flow.' I was immersed in the plot (Vincent has a brother? Really?) as much as anything else. I didn't know this was going to become something I would analyze, one day, then hyper analyze. (big smile) Finding fan fiction sites was a revelation. (And yes, those aren't 'the show.' But considering how the show ended, I surely didn't mind that they were there. Just the opposite. I blessed the fates that brave, creative people had taken a pen to this, and tried to 'fix' what needed fixing, and let the story spin out, some more.

For your sake, when we duel some more, it MIGHT be more 'coherent' of me to stick with episode expansions that more closely align with the episodes we've recently discussed on the board. I am therefore less likely to inject statements or attitudes for the characters that seem 'out of order' with the series, (a thing I barely paid attention to as I dabbled my way through early fan fictions).

---
Having typed all that... I think the opening of Chamber Music is a gem. (And, it's a 'necessary gem.' It shows them enjoying each other and themselves, unrestrained by care. It lets us be privy to what he is thinking about her as he watches her, ("She walks in beauty...") -I wish I could get that kind of voice over in the "Anniversary chamber scene" of A Gentle Rain."- (smile.) Too often the 'together' moment for them in the show is at the end, (the balcony scene) where the cares of the episode get wrapped up, and we fade to the end theme. This one had a different pace. Here, we get a lovely 'together moment' in the beginning. Catherine is laughing. Vincent is broadly smiling. Rain soaks her, then him, and they embrace in it, as the concert 'ends,' but the evening is an unqualified success. He is in love. She is in love. They've discussed that they were perhaps near each other sometimes, without knowing it. It's unabashedly romantic, and lovely, and gives us a 'glimpse' into their happiness. (Endless angst and trials make for some great fan fiction. But in 'real life' they are tiresome, and you start to wonder why the couple is together if everything is always so hard.) MuC, and a few brief flashes of episodes here and there let us see "Ah. This. Yes, this. This is why they are together. This is what they get and give to each other, as they fall more deeply in love." (As opposed to Vincent telling Mouse how he feels, or Catherine telling Father "Of course, I'm here. What did you expect.") They are together on what can only be described (in mundane terms) as a 'date.' And they make another one, for Thursday night, before they part. Vincent's voice ("Then I'll come for you. On Thursday.") drips honey and loving intentions. He's looking forward to seeing her again, before they even part. He might even be hoping it rains, again. He can't take his eyes off her as she leaves, and Byron is what pops into his head.

It's all good.

Way more than you asked for, I know. (smiling as always,)

Cindy

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Re: <smiile>

Post by cindyrae77 » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:36 pm

No, it was not Rolley. It was hope. Hope at work. Quietly, like in a solemn ritual, Mouse was going about the chamber, lighting the candles on the tall candlesticks scattered all around. Standing close to the piano stool, Jamie was holding a lantern herself, to light up the work of a balding man Catherine remembered having seen at Winterfest. It was the sounds he produced, tuning the great instrument, that they had heard. The piano cover had been removed, and Rebecca with a couple of children was cleaning it up. A strange, suspended, palpable atmosphere of… careful dreaming filled the chamber.


---
Small fix and a question. "Jamie was holding a lantern herself" should probably just be shortened to "Jamie was holding a lantern."

When you say 'the piano cover had been removed, do you mean a dust cover? (If you do, you can just say 'the piano's dust cover had been removed... etc.)

If, on the other hand, you mean the wooden part that lifts to reveal the strings inside, that is usually called the piano 'lid' I think. A 'cover' would imply something larger, like a sheet, to keep off the dust.

Loved the last sentence!

Cindy

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Re: <smiile>

Post by 222333 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:09 pm

*
No, not more that I asked for – never more than I asked for. I’m thirsty of intelligent, extensive B&B conversation. Thank you.

I’ll start from the end of your post, about Chamber Music. There’s something seldom remembered/mentioned about this episode. That is, it’s written by Ron Koslow himself.

I often hear the laments about Koslow wanting V&C to stay apart and his idea that they are meant to never be together etc. It’s a popular take on the show, and a prism through which the whole story is looked at. Now, if Chamber Music is Koslow’s way to depict how he thinks they are meant to “not” be together, I think that a good deal of laments are unfounded. Look at what you just wrote, your beautiful description of C&V together in Chamber Music. Can that approach be an obstacle to our couple being on the right path to love?

Koslow wrote AHL, and then CMu as his next contribution to the development of the story, (first episode after AHL as per airing order, third per filming order). He brought them to be a couple in AHL: “It’s worth everything!” – “Everything!”. And then, in the next episode he wrote, he explained how he sees them as a couple. Where do you see restrain, impossibility, sadness, keeping at arm’s length etc. in it?

Even if we consider it as a single episode, what we see is what you described in your post: “It shows them enjoying each other and themselves, unrestrained by care.”

As to our ways to watch the episodes, please don’t get me wrong. It’s “just a tv show”, we are entitled to enjoy it in any ways we prefer. I told you mine: following a trajectory. For the fans from day one, you confirmed what I heard and realized when I met the online fandom: the fans were just immersed in the weekly episode. Which did not come all the weeks: I look at the dates and I often see two and sometimes three weeks between them. And months before the last three episodes. In a way, it may also have been a blessing: many inconsistencies were simply not noticed.

I have a theory about this though – that is, if fans had basically in mind the last episode they just watched, the overall perception of the show is heavily colored by the Season Three and its tragic unhappy ending.

So, Catherine is the one who wonders if she has been a reckless damsel in distress, as she asks Father in the Trilogy. It’s not true – violence (especially violence related to Catherine and her world) disappeared from the last episodes of S1 and for most of S2, but it does not matter: she said it, the Trilogy agenda was to push V into his breakdown, and Catherine is forever marked that way, guilty of "the toll violence took on V". Of which there is no trace in the episodes. In the Trilogy, again in view of the breakdown agenda, Father says that Vincent is desperate and fragile, that in the past he had a nervous breakdown that needed restrain with chains (or suchlike, I don’t know very well those episodes), and it does not matter that there is NO trace of such fragility in the past episodes. Vincent is forever perceived desperate and fragile like after the Absurd Dark Turn. It does not matter that in the last big episodes like ADS, Trial, AKBTS they are a couple in love like never before. The Hollow Men happen, consistency is forgotten, and Vincent “becomes” that wreck, unstable and keeping Catherine at arm’s length. And Catherine, who’s been dancing all the time, until as late as Orphans, around “I go below, no I don’t go below – I want to stay here with you, no I won’t stay here – I kiss you but only on my way out”, becomes the one who sacrifices her life for him, hence the one in love and sure about their love, while Vincent is just a wreck to be rescued… Which is true for that Absurd Trilogy, but it is not so before.

S

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Re: <smiile>

Post by cindyrae77 » Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:05 pm

You are right that one thing about being an 'original viewer' (and having to wait a long time between episodes sometimes) caused almost any inconsistency to go unnoticed. (the most glaring one to me now is Father's description/descriptions of when Vincent knew Paracelsus and what the nature of their relationship might have been.) At the time, we (the audience) were curious about anything that hinted at Vincent's origins, and John Pater seemed to have either the key to that or the lies for it, and Vincent always reacted to him, strongly, (understandably.) Plus, Tony Jay pulls off a good villain.

But yes, sometimes the waits in between episodes were very long and even things like Vincent's 'uneven' reaction to violence got overlooked. (He's regretful. No, he's sure he's in the right, as long as kids/his family/Catherine is involved. He's actively stalking and hunting when Cathy gets shot. He's mournful after the college students kill for fun (also echoing headlines at the time in NYC, I believe), and he's a dominant protective force against the Tong, but locked into immobility in a chair, after the Outsiders. Ron Perlman's acting was so good he managed to pull off whatever the writers asked him to convey, and do it under three pounds of heavy makeup. It's probably safe to say we all 'bought' whatever we got served week to week, and just wanted more, wanted to see all this happen. I was just happy on weeks when it wasn't pre-empted.

And then... That Season hits, and it's literally all for nothing. Beauty has no happy ending with her Beast, and Diana, pretty as she was and as interestingly as she gets written, can't make us 'believe,' again. Vincent is destroyed, and he's got company. The audience is with him. I stuck it through to the end, seeing him reunite with his son, seeing Diana shoot Gabriel with Cathy's gun, seeing... well, you know. And this time, if Vincent had any qualms about violence, we all had no idea what they were. No Dark One came calling when Snow died, or Elliot died, or Gabriel held Vincent's infant son captive. And again, the episodes ended up with 'gaps' between them, and I haven't watched any of them again. It's a stubborn refusal on my part to embrace what the show became, even though I watched it at the time. I wanted him to find love and have a happy ending, and all the storybook flavor of the concept to come to pass. I just had no idea who to 'root' for, anymore, other than the obvious; I rooted for Vincent, to somehow overcome it all. I refuse to watch Cathy die in his arms, ever again. It's too unpleasant, in the extreme.

Then the show ended for good and that was that.

But in the mean time, S2.

The show was struggling in the ratings all year, pretty much, and I think no one really knew what to do about that. (In the first year, it closed at 49th in the ratings, putting it near the middle of the pack of shows on the air at the time, and nothing to brag about. Then in S2 it went down to 65, then 93rd, by S3.) I love everyone who loves the show, but it was never this 'big hit' CBS had on its hands, outside of the Pilot and maybe a bit after. Critics loving it isn't the same thing as it getting embraced by the masses. I think it regularly struggled to even carry its time slot. (Perfect Strangers was listed at number 37 to BATB's 49 or 50, for the first year.)

I stumbled across a good article written by the New York Times where Ron Koslow, RP and Linda all discuss a bit of the nature of the romance and acknowledge that the audience wanted a physical relationship to occur. -Apparently, 86 percent of the folks who wrote in about the show favored such a notion, so the idea that R. Koslow was writing in a vacuum about this is also silly. Linda is very open about the idea that Cathy is going to/should have sex with someone. RK admits that while the couple are indeed in love in a courtly way, BATB wasn't intended as the answer to the AIDS epidemic. (Just stop having sex, everybody.) It's interesting, in its way, if you've never seen it before. And relevant to our discussion, the article appeared I believe right before CMu aired, or close to it.

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/24/arts/ ... ton&st=cse

Hugs as ever,

Cindy

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a question about Vincent's thoughts

Post by 222333 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:23 am

*
You wrote:
He wanted to go to the entrance alone, in case Rolley wasn't there, so he could intercept Catherine before she arrived there and spare her some disappointment. Or depending on what Rolley wanted, in case he was there, demanding the other half of the hundred. It was an odd position to be in. Vincent did not know exactly what he hoped. He only knew that he had drawn Catherine into this, and was not happy that it had cost her money.

I can understand that Vincent is not happy that “it had cost her money”. Of course.
It’s that other part that does not sound right to me, that he wanted “to intercept C before she arrived there and spare her some disappointment”. It doesn’t seem to me that this is an attitude that V shows, neither in the Chamber Music episode nor in the show. It seems to me that V tries to share with C as much as possible, enjoying her peer-to-peer approach to the things they are living together. He drew C into this unpleasant meeting with Rolley, he showed her all his grief and hopelessness, he relies on her rather than trying to spare things to her. I don’t know if I’m projecting an attitude of mine, but I don’t think C would be happy to know that his lover does not consider her strong enough to live this development of what they faced together in case it is not a happy development, and feels the need to protect her and, ultimately, keep her away. I can remember that he kept her away from his concerns once, but it was about Lena falling for him, and this I can understand (like C said, in fact), but he then apologized and said he was wrong to do it.

Tell me what you think of this?

S

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Re: <smiile>

Post by cindyrae77 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:10 pm

Ah, I do see what you are saying; that they are a 'united team' in many things, at it is out of character for him to try and 'shield' her from whatever is to come, next.

In this one, however, Catherine is in the position of also keeping a bit of a secret. (She paid Rolley money to get him out the door to see Vincent.) Canon tells us that much, but it says nothing about it, after, so the story was just kind of leaning into that territory. Vincent wants to hope for the best, where Rolley is concerned, but much is arrayed against Vincent, not the least of which is that drug addicts are notoriously unreliable. Also, Catherine has been questioning Vincent about 'dreaming cautiously,' while he's been trying to apply some caution to her hopes that all will be well.

Plot wise, I needed a way for her to go fetch the other half of the hundred, in case in becomes part of the wrap up.

But that absence on Catherine's part gave Vincent another moment of 'cautious dreaming.' At this point, he's not sure what to hope for. (If Rolley's there, he might just be there for the rest of the money. If he isn't there, Catherine may be disappointed, because she wants him to be there for Vincent's sake, if not for his own. Both of them -Vincent and Catherine- are hoping Rolley turns out to have some cautious dreams of his own, just enough so they can all believe, including the people back in the chamber with the piano. It's almost an 'echo' of when Catherine had to pay Rolley to get out there and talk to Vincent, in CM. That moment when she reaches into her wallet, rips the hundred in half and pretty much tells him "Is that what it takes to get you out there to talk to him? Fine. Here it is. Go."

Vincent knows she's in there, hoping for all of them, and willing to do anything, give anything, for it to turn out all right. He knows she'll continue to be that way (about this and other things) because she loves him, so very much. He's not trying to shield her out of lack of regard for her, but just the opposite. He knows she'll give, and maybe even give too much, to try and make his 'dreams' come true. (Vincent wants to talk to Rolley? Fine. Vincent gets to talk to Rolley. No matter what it takes.) He also knows there are things neither her money or her hope can fix, and he fears Rolley is one of them. Unintentionally, this one turned into a bit of a study of 'hope vs. fear.' "Cautious dreaming" was an accidentally well chosen phrase.

He's not trying just to spare her disappointment for her own sake, therefore; he's trying to spare her disappointment because she knows HE is disappointed in turn, and she'll try to find ways to fix that (like with the money she spent in the episode) even when there's no good way to fix things.

Underneath all of this, there is still Rolley. And everyone's reactions to what he will do next. For an 'off camera' character, he's directing everyone's actions and reactions.

If it seems 'off character' however, I can redo it. Can you think of a different way to say it so it works better for you? I'm trying to show Vincent feeling conflicted at this point, someone who no longer knows what to wish for. (Which 'cautious dream' to embrace.)

The last time Rolley showed up, it cost Catherine a hundred bucks, and now Vincent knows it. So Vincent is stuck for it. Does he hope Rolley comes back? Or stays gone? Is he annoyed with Cathy now that knows about the money, but understands it was an act of love? The people in the music chamber think there's going to be a concert. It seems that's up in the air, at this point.

Vincent wants to protect all of them from hurt (because he's Vincent) and wants to protect Rolley as well.

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Re: <smiile>

Post by 222333 » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:07 pm

*

I think the point is this that you wrote:
He's not trying just to spare her disappointment for her own sake, therefore; he's trying to spare her disappointment because she knows HE is disappointed in turn, and she'll try to find ways to fix that (like with the money she spent in the episode) even when there's no good way to fix things.


I’ll attempt a clumsy example to explain what I’m thinking.
If your beloved dog is sick, it’s not sparing your husband the problem that you help neither the dog nor the husband. I think. You face the problem together, don’t you? You love each other, you love the dog, you are adults, responsible individuals. You want the best for your dog, you “team” for helping it.
Different in case we are speaking of a child, instead of the husband. You can try to spare the child the pain, certainly. The relationship is completely different.
Of course the examples are always inadequate, but I think you get what I mean.
The whole Chamber Music is about a couple facing the Rolley problem, supporting each other, helping each other, during and after it, the whole unpleasant thing and the unpleasant feelings about it. Vincent was crushed in the end, he did not try to hide it from Catherine. And Catherine, as his woman, helped him to cope.
It does not sound right now that Vincent wants to hide from Catherine his disappointment. Nor that either of them wants to fix things on his/her own.
That is, if I look at Chamber Music and the dynamics we see there.

Also, about the money. The episode does not say if Catherine told Vincent she bribed Rolley. But again, Vincent is not dumb. He knows addicted people. He asks Catherine to enter a male shelter. What did he expect her to do? I’m not saying he expected C to pay Rolley, I mean that he *wanted* Rolley out, and trusted Catherine would manage. (She didn’t spare her anything, by the way. Went straight to her, woke her up, plopped the problem in her lap. That’s a man trusting his woman, a tribute to her and to their being a couple) She paid for it? So what? What’s 100$ for Catherine? What’s 100$ for an opening to save Rolley?
I mean, he may be surprised to learn about the money, but not outraged or anything that might make Catherine feel guilty.

I certainly agree we should continue on the beautiful theme of careful dreaming. You say: I'm trying to show Vincent feeling conflicted at this point, someone who no longer knows what to wish for. (Which 'cautious dream' to embrace.) Me, I’d say that he, Catherine, everyone have Rolley in mind, the real Rolley, not the dream of him. And there is no way of dreaming beautiful dreams about anyone unless you start from the reality, otherwise you dream for the sake of dreaming, not about the Rolley at hand. I think it is an American way of saying that beautiful “no way to cross a bridge until you come to it”. It’s not V’s or anyone else’s wishes that Rolley is supposed to be or act upon. They need to see him, understand him, and then cautiously dream about him, not about their wishes.

Just thinking out loud, of course, with your help.

If it seems 'off character' however, I can redo it. Can you think of a different way to say it so it works better for you? I'm trying to show Vincent feeling conflicted at this point, someone who no longer knows what to wish for. (Which 'cautious dream' to embrace.)


what if you just remove the second part of the paragraph, for now? Until "will do no harm". I'm planning to continue writing:
"Catherine smiled, a grateful smile. "Yes, I need to don something different... for now," she added with a vague gesture indicating her beautiful gown. "See you at the gate." And she hurried off.
Then, you can continue however you prefer, free to stick to your idea, (that's the beauty of a duel, after all) or to consider something of what I said.

:D

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Re: <smiile>

Post by cindyrae77 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 7:30 pm

When a moment like this happens to me when I'm writing a fiction, I often do as you're suggesting. Go 'one way' with it, and leave a notation that if that way is unfruitful, I go back. So, yes! I am fine with it.

Regarding a small fix: "Don" (for wear) isn't used very much in speech. (It does get used in descriptions, however, as in "Vincent donned his black cloak") It is more likely Catherine would say something along the lines of "I need to go change into something different... for now."

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