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Re: Remember Love

by Zara » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:56 am

;) As I've been reading Estés for much longer than six months, I doubt a sabbatical will help.

I dislike this episode primarily because "It's a Wonderful Life" is an obnoxious pitfall of a plot device, an isolated worst-case-scenario what-if, that forces characters to behave in ways they would not naturally behave. This "railroading" of the characters essentially invalidates any conclusions the plot may draw about character qualities and motivations, because said conclusions don't pertain to who the characters are during all the other episodes in a series. Inserting "It's a Wonderful Life" episodes is a distraction at best and a detriment to character development at worst, yet too many storytellers are drawn in by the lure of a readily recycled plot. To wring any value out of such storylines, one has to resort to the kind of interpretive acrobatics I'm attempting in this thread. Since doing that means doing an awful lot of in-depth analysis and synthesis work, It's-a-Wonderful-Lifeiness mostly just ends up confusing the audience who came to the show because they only wanted to enjoy a new episode of a good story. For my part, this type of roughshod plotting always pops my willing suspension of disbelief.

Your bookworm,

Zara

Re: Remember Love

by Maclurv » Sat Aug 24, 2013 3:06 am

(Mutters on the way over to Amazon.com) A Jungian analyst! Great, another book to add to the list!

You really need to take about a 6 month sabbatical from reading to give me even a gnat's chance to catch up to some you've recommended! :lol:

Thank you for copying so much to aid in your explanations. This is really shaping up into something useful to think through the implications of what the dream means. And to think you dislike this episode so much! Methinks there is more here than you may have originally thought, no? :lol:

Pat

Re: Remember Love

by Zara » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:55 am

Scene 10 - Dreamtime Riddle in Anti-Father's Chamber:

--> This scene contains a tremendously powerful and dangerous figure who needs some special attention, so I am going to appeal to an expert authority for help in explaining Paracelsus. From Women Who Run With the Wolves, by Dr. Clarissa Pinkola Estés:
In a single human being there are many other beings, all with their own values, motives, and devices. Some psychological technologies suggest we arrest these beings, count them, name them, force them into harness till they shuffle along like vanquished slaves. But to do this would halt the dance of wildish lights in a woman's eyes; it would halt her heat lightning and arrest all throwing of sparks. Rather than corrupt her natural beauty, our work is to build for all these beings a wildish countryside wherein the artists among them can make, the lovers love, the healers heal.

But what shall we do with those inner beings who are quite mad and those who carry out destruction without thought? Even these must be given a place, though one in which they can be contained. One entity in particular, the most deceitful and most powerful fugitive in the psyche, requires our immediate consciousness and containment--and that one is the natural predator.

While the cause of much human suffering can be traced to negligent fostering, there is also within the psyche naturally an innate contra naturam aspect, an "against nature" force. The contra naturam aspect opposes the positive: it is against development, against harmony, and against the wild. It is a derisive and murderous antagonist that is born into us, and even with the best parental nurture the intruder's sole assignment is to attempt to turn all crossroads into closed roads....

Although it may symbolize itself similarly or differently in men's psyches, it is the ancient and contemporary foe of both genders....

Wherever the predator lurks and works, everything is derailed, demolished, and decapitated.
Paracelsus = Vincent's Predator

The Mob = Malevolent extensions of Paracelsus; thus Pascal-B is revealed to represent not merely aggressive but predatory paranoia, and Jamie-B the sort of heedless curiosity that does not lead the soul to enlightenment, but instead lures the self toward captivity and death in the jaws of the Dark Man, the lair of the immeasureably destructive mage, the halls of the false father, the clutches of the inner Bluebeard

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Now, again from Estés:
It is crucial for us to remember that when we have dark man dreams there is always an opposing, that is, a balancing power, poised and waiting to help us. When we initiate wildish energy in order to balance the predator, guess who immediately shows up? Wild Woman comes driving over whatever fences, walls, or obstructions the predator has erected. She is not an icon, to be hung on the wall like a retablo, religious painting. She is a living being who comes to us anywhere, under any conditions. She and the predator have known each other a long, long time. She tracks him through dreams, through stories, through tales, and through women's entire lives. Wherever he is, she is, for she is the one who balances his predations.
Angel/Catherine-B = Vincent's Wild Woman Protector

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Estés (plus a bit of Zara):
Instead of reviling the predator of the psyche, or running away from it, we dismember it. We accomplish this by not allowing ourselves divisive thoughts about our soul-life and our worth in particular. We capture invidious thoughts before they become large enough to do any harm, and we dismantle them.

We dismantle the predator by countering its diatribes with our own nurturant truths. [Here I switch to the "Remember Love" episode text for the dialogue example...] Predator: "He shall be the greatest who is the loneliest, the most hidden, the most deviating. The human being beyond good and evil." Vincentself: "Beyond good and evil lies only death." [Now Estés...] We dismantle the assaults of the natural predator by taking to heart and working with what is truthful in what the predator says and then discarding the rest. [Me: At no time in this dream does Vincent deny his own potential for greatness, his power to make choices and act, or his responsibilities to himself and his world. In dialogue with Paracelsus, Vincent does not deny the presence of loneliness, hiddenness, and deviation within his identity. But he firmly rejects the predator's attempt to separate Vincent from his love-oriented morality.]

[Estés:] We dismantle the predator by maintaining our intuitions and instincts and by resisting the predator's seductions. If we were to list all our losses up to this point in our lives, remembering times when we were disappointed, when we were powerless against torment, when we had a fantasy filled with frosting and frou-frou, we would understand that these are vulnerable sites in our psyches. It is to those desirous and underprivileged parts that the predator appeals in order to hide the fact that its sole intention is to drag you to the cellar and leech your energy as a blood transfusion for himself.
Action = Vincent resists the philosophical and emotional violence of Paracelsus without resorting to violence himself, and the Angel whisks Vincent to inner safety before the Predator's lethal blow can strike him down

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Estés:
But fortunately for us, when the predatory element...is on the move, it leaves behind unmistakable tracks in her dreams. These tracks eventually lead to its discovery, capture, and containment....

Practice listening to your intuition, your inner voice; ask questions; be curious; see what you see; hear what you hear; and then act upon what you know to be true. These intuitive powers were given to your soul at birth....

By retrieving these powers from the shadows of our psyches, we shall not be the victims of internal or external circumstances.
Costly Choice: Vincent embraces the vulnerable sites in his psyche in order to protect them from self-destructive tendencies within himself at the expense of enduring the fear and pain that arise from the ensuing inner conflict

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Estés:

When a woman works to espy the predator of her own psyche, and if she will acknowledge its presence and do necessary battle with it, the predator will move to a much more isolated and unobtrusive point in the psyche. But if the predator is ignored, it becomes increasingly and deeply hateful and jealous, with a desire to silence the woman forever.
Motivation: Vincent listens to what all his psyche-pieces have to say, then does battle with the predatory intruder when it reveals itself, because he wants to maintain his integrity of Self

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Estés:
The dark man in women's dreams appears when an initiation--a psychic change from one level of knowing and behavior to another more mature or more energetic level of knowledge and action--is imminent. This dream occurs to the as-yet-to-be-initiated, as well as to those who are veterans of several rites of passage, for there is always more initiation. No matter how old a woman becomes, no matter how many years pass, she has yet more ages, stages, and more "first times" awaiting her. This is what initiation is all about: it creates an archway which one prepares to pass through to a new manner of knowing and being....

The threat of the dark man serves as a warning to all of us--if you don't pay attention to the treasures, they will be stolen from you. In this manner, when a woman has one or a series of these dreams, it infers that a huge gate is opening to the initiatory grounds where her revaluing of her gifts can occur. There, whatever has been incrementally destroying her or robbing her can be recognized, apprehended, and dealt with.
Lesson Learned: To quote the Angel, "Knowledge and beauty are fragile things. They need protection"; Vincent reclaims the knowledge that he embodies hope and possibility, and that his holistic Vincentself is both privileged and responsible to defend the truth and beauty living within him



~ Zara

Re: Remember Love

by Zara » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:33 pm

New scene summaries + changes to prior scenes (old material italicized)...

My Flash-Summary Outline of "Remember Love"

(Exploring the interpretation which holds that the entire episode is a dream up to the moment when Vincent wakes in the final scene...)

Vincent = an integrated identity pursuing love, beauty, freedom, wisdom, and personal growth during a dreamtime journey


Landmarks:
  • Every character he meets along the way provides an essential truth about Vincent's identity
  • Every setting he enters activates a new challenge of identity for Vincent to explore
  • Every choice Vincent makes has a price and a consequence
  • Vincent's actions, reactions, and decisions during the journey reveal his priorities and motivations
  • Dreamtime riddles illustrate lessons that Vincent learns about himself

Scene 1 - Chamber of the Falls:

Catherine-A = Vincent's wonder and curiosity about the larger world beyond the City of New York

Action = Vincent's curiosity gradually overrides his caution

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to satisfy his curiosity at the expense of his security

Motivation = Vincent trusts his strengths to preserve his self during risk-taking, and hopes for the reward of new opportunities for love and pleasure




Scene 2 - Father's Chamber:


Father-A = Vincent's sense of connection and interdependence with his Tunnels community, including his sense of responsibility as a leader

Catherine-A (in absentia) = Vincent's power to risk his present well-being in the hope of gaining future well-being

Action = Vincent's stabilizing desire to belong to the underworld community he loves conflicts with his risky desire to
increase his participation with the upperworld wonders he loves

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to nurture his power to risk changing his present state of being at the expense of his sense of connection and interdependence with the community that fosters his identity

Motivation = Vincent wants to grow in a new direction, and at a new (swift) pace



Scene 3 - Vincent's Chamber:


Pascal-A = Reasoned voice of Vincent's caution

Mouse-A = Frightened voice of Vincent's caution

Jamie-A = Cultural voice of Vincent's caution (cultural in the sense of ingrained Tunnels principles and lifestyle)

[Three Friends Together = Reactive inhibitions initiating a self-preservation mode in the face of potential change]


Catherine-A (in absentia) = Vincent's desire for self-expansion in new contexts

Action = Vincent reasons with his fear and his native culture, then solicits a rational evaluation of his choices from his conscience

Costly Choice = Vincent slows down to carefully weigh the detriments and benefits of change, at the expense of his previously swift and impulsive pace of growth

Motivation = Vincent recognizes the wise and protective nature of his conscience, and is accustomed to listening to it



Scene 4 - Montage of Vincent's Chamber, The Whispering Gallery, The Chamber of the Falls, and The Central Park Tunnel Entrance:

Vincent Alone = The introspective power of an introverted personality

Action = Vincent engages in active, focused contemplation

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to invest his time and energy in asking private questions of himself at the expense of making preparations for potential change

Motivation = Vincent trusts both his intuition and his capacity for critical thinking during his decision-making process



Scene 5 - Central Park Entrance Gate:


Catherine-A = Vincent's resurgent hopeful urge to leap into unknown conditions in pursuit of happiness

Action = Vincent explains his refusal to risk his present well-being for the uncertain prospect of future well-being

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to postpone growth in this direction at the expense of disappointing his hopes for immediate happiness

Motivation = Vincent values his secure freedom to choose between the risks of self-growth and the risks of self-maintenance



Scene 6 - Interior Tunnels:

Vincent Alone = The isolated pressures of an introverted personality

Action = Vincent makes a pained retreat into his inner sanctum

Costly Choice = Vincent relinquishes his dream of quick expansion at the expense of experiencing a natural depression which accompanies the process of accepting a personal loss

Motivation = Vincent wants to feel safe in a restful setting after his time of turmoil



Scene 7 - Vincent's Chamber:

Vincent's Voice = Vincent's deepest regrets


Catherine-A's Voice = Vincent's disappointed hopes

Father-A's Voice = Vincent's dire fears of annhilation

[Three Voices Together = Vincent's most critical self-doubts]

Action = Vincent suffers the exhausting emotional backlash after his dream of risky change is utterly extinguished

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to resist his dark thoughts and feelings at the expense of damaging/deranging his inmost haven of light

Motivation = One of Vincent's chief priorities is to fend off despair whenever it encroaches upon his peace of mind;
he exercises his tenacious optimism with beautiful emotional dexterity in order to bolster hope and pursue life. Here Vincent finds that his anger is insufficient to ward off the effects of grief and a fear of self-betrayal, so the core of Vincentself provides a rescue by riddling him deeper into his psyche, in order to refocus Vincent's energy into a different outlet for personal growth....



Scene 8 - Dreamtime Riddle in Vincent's Chamber:

Angel/Catherine-B = The highest, brightest, most central aspect of Vincent's soul, his voice of inner wisdom

Action = The Angel poses her riddle and promises to answer Vincent's questions about himself; she asks him, "Who are you without your safe haven?"

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to trust the self-examination offered by his inner wisdom at the expense of feeling the keen pain of losing any illusions he may hold about himself

Motivation = Above all, Vincent wants to understand and accept what is true about himself

Lesson Learned = Vincent is fully capable of orienting himself according to his prevailing values while engaging in meaningful self-examination



Scene 9 - Dreamtime Riddle in Labyrinthine Tunnels:

Angel/Catherine-B = Vincent's guiding priority of love

Pascal-B = Unreasonable voice of Vincent's aggressive paranoia

Jamie-B = Tempting voice of Vincent's unbridled curiosity

Action = In entering an exploration of his shadow-side, Vincent fails to engage in rational dialogue with either his paranoia or his curiosity, enduring the violent onslaught of paranoia and following curiosity into the next riddle

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to hearken to what paranoia and curiosity may have to offer at the expense of receiving minor injury to his present identity

Motivation = Out of self-respecting love, Vincent suspends judgment as to whether these two voices of his shadow-side represent positive or negative qualities, so he can learn more about how they operate in his mind

Lesson Learned = Paranoia and curiosity are not trustworthy impulses



~ Zara

Re: Remember Love

by Maclurv » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:38 pm

I fear I am failing
Perhaps we are both not communicating well. I know so far this week has not been a good one, so I am not likely in my best form. And perhaps I am anticipating the next segment too much. (Remember my relationship with patience?) I would also point out that I was asking questions around one scene description, mostly, so your outline is not so floundering in my book. :D

Hmm. Actual relationships. It might be fun to noodle with your approach for Vincent and Paracelsus, and perhaps Vincent and Father. The others are not as interesting to me in the real sense. Must give this some further thought.

Please continue on! I await the next installment.

Pat

Re: Remember Love

by Zara » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:13 pm

I do not mean to discount the relationship between Vincent and Catherine. I'm hoping to indirectly illustrate its complexity through the rich internalization Vincent has made of the woman he loves. Alas, I fear I am failing.

Please understand, there are three Catherines in this dream. My floundering outline is trying to establish the idea that Dream-Catherine-A is not the center of Vincent's faith, hope, and love; Dream-Catherine-A is only one outer boundary of his emergent frontier. It is no accident that in the upcoming scene wherein Vincent's dream deepens into the most powerful form of personal growth...the highest, brightest, most central aspect of Vincent's soul appears in the guise of Catherine at her most beautiful and angelic. I cannot imbue Dream-Catherine-A with the authority to define either Vincent's identity or the nature of his waking-world relationship with Catherine Chandler because Dream-Catherine-A does not have the last word in these matters. That is supposed to be the purpose and action of Dream-Catherine-B, the Angel.

You are welcome to take my outline and apply it to the overall Vincent-Catherine relationship if you wish to. If it is a help, I am glad! I wonder, though, if you do this, do you also apply it to the "real-world" Vincent-Father, Vincent-Mouse, Vincent-Pascal, Vincent-Jamie, and Vincent-Paracelsus relationships? That is not how I am designing this interpretive framework because I am attempting to explore Vincent's internal self-conceptualizations. But know that I do post all this in the hope that you (and any others wandering through) might potentially find this stuff useful in some way. So do as you will. Adapt what you want. Dream something lovely.

Struggling to articulate my own dreamings,

Zara

Re: Remember Love

by Maclurv » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:39 pm

No. I tried to indicate that Vincent's psyche feels ready for a new growth spurt in the direction of adventure and novelty.
Okay, maybe it's our differences at play here, but I did read the growth spurt to include the relationship itself. And I think it plays well in the analysis you've written so far.
The psyche-pieces talking to Vincent bring up the issues of curiosity, fun, joy, and personal growth in Vincent's capacity to risk his present well-being in the hope of gaining future well-being.
While I don't disagree with this, and I know we are considering the other characters who appear as pieces of Vincent speaking to himself, I am not sure why you are discounting the relationship which is so core for Vincent and the show. For something he never expected to have in his life, and little experience in, isn't the relationship something about which issues of curiosity, fun, joy, and personal growth apply? And does not th relationship represent risk and gain to his future well-being?

Pat

Re: Remember Love

by Zara » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:50 am

Pat wrote:Could you explain more about the choice? I understand resisting dark thoughts/feelings. What I am not clear how you see things is in the 'inmost haven of light.'
Vincent's chamber is his sanctuary, his safe place, and his personal venue for hospitality among his people. As an inmost haven of light, this space is where he rests and recharges when he needs to. Where he is best equipped to offer restoration, peace, and courage to others in need. The battle he wages against darkness (represented by the destruction and disarray of his furnishings) disrupts the serenity of his sanctuary.
Pat wrote:What leads you to conclude that a chief priority of Vincent's is to fend off despair?
Encroaching despair. I see this in the majority of episodes when Vincent faces terrible dangers. Vincent clings to hope and to life with ferocious tenacity. "No Way Down," "An Impossible Silence," and "Shades of Gray" especially come to mind. In these episodes and others, Vincent wields his optimism with beautiful emotional dexterity.
Pat wrote:As I read this, the thought popped into my head that perhaps Vincent sees this dream as a warning, and while you indicated in the earlier scenes he was wanting to move the relationship at a faster pace (were that it happened!), the dream calls him to again hesitate and slow down the relationship after Catherine has made the commitment to him. Is the relationship turning too real for him to handle at this time?
An interesting question, but I'm sorry I miscommunicated my point. I see that I did not build in enough connections into the outline of Scene 2...
Pat wrote:...you indicated in the earlier scenes he was wanting to move the relationship at a faster pace (were that it happened!), the dream calls him to again hesitate and slow down the relationship after Catherine has made the commitment to him.
No. I tried to indicate that Vincent's psyche feels ready for a new growth spurt in the direction of adventure and novelty. My outline does not address Vincent's real-world relationship with Catherine. The psyche-pieces talking to Vincent bring up the issues of curiosity, fun, joy, and personal growth in Vincent's capacity to risk his present well-being in the hope of gaining future well-being. Remember, Dream-Catherine isn't Catherine, just as Dream-Father isn't Father. I took a shortcut in writing about "the community he loves" and "the woman he loves," assuming that these phrases could stand in for what "Catherine =" and "Father =". I'll try to fix that in my next chunk of roadmap.

In other words, I disagree that in "Remember Love" Vincent is wanting to change his relationship with Catherine in terms of "pace." But then, I have also long disagreed with the whole notion of "pacing" and romantic "goals" or "milestones" in this story.

~ Zara

Re: Remember Love

by Maclurv » Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:54 am

I was following along nicely, and then I got lost a little.
Action = Vincent suffers the exhausting emotional backlash after his dream of risky change is utterly extinguished

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to resist his dark thoughts and feelings at the expense of damaging/deranging his inmost haven of light

Motivation = One of Vincent's chief priorities is to fend off despair whenever it encroaches upon his peace of mind; here he finds that his anger is insufficient to ward off the effects of grief and a fear of self-betrayal, so the core of Vincentself provides a rescue by riddling him deeper into his psyche, in order to refocus Vincent's energy into a different outlet for personal growth....
Could you explain more about the choice? I understand resisting dark thoughts/feelings. What I am not clear how you see things is in the 'inmost haven of light.'

Some other questions to understand your perspective:
What leads you to conclude that a chief priority of Vincent's is to fend off despair?
As I read this, the thought popped into my head that perhaps Vincent sees this dream as a warning, and while you indicated in the earlier scenes he was wanting to move the relationship at a faster pace (were that it happened!), the dream calls him to again hesitate and slow down the relationship after Catherine has made the commitment to him (this being the episode after AHL). Is the relationship turning too real for him to handle at this time?

Pat

Re: Remember Love

by Zara » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:20 am

Pat wrote:Your way is much shorter than mine! :lol:
For the record, I don't think my way is shorter. It's just...highly condensed. ;)

Here I list the whole summary, up to Vincent's entrance into the deeper dream. Old material is presented in italics. Format remains the same.

My Flash-Summary Outline of "Remember Love"

(Exploring the interpretation which holds that the entire episode is a dream up to the moment when Vincent wakes in the final scene...)

Vincent = an integrated identity pursuing love, beauty, freedom, wisdom, and personal growth during a dreamtime journey

Landmarks:
  • Every character he meets along the way provides an essential truth about Vincent's identity
  • Every setting he enters activates a new challenge of identity for Vincent to explore
  • Every choice Vincent makes has a price and a consequence
  • Vincent's actions, reactions, and decisions during the journey reveal his priorities and motivations

Scene 1 - Chamber of the Falls:

Catherine = Vincent's wonder and curiosity about the larger world beyond the City of New York

Action = Vincent's curiosity gradually overrides his caution

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to satisfy his curiosity at the expense of his security

Motivation = Vincent trusts his strengths to preserve his self during risk-taking, and hopes for the reward of new opportunities for love and pleasure




Scene 2 - Father's Chamber:

Father = Vincent's sense of connection and interdependence with his Tunnels community,[/i] including his sense of responsibility as a leader

Catherine (in absentia) = Vincent's power to risk his present well-being in the hope of gaining future well-being

Action = Vincent's stabilizing desire to belong to the underworld community he loves conflicts with his risky desire to belong to the upperworld woman he loves

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to nurture his relationship with the woman he loves at the expense of his relationship with the community he loves

Motivation = Vincent wants to grow in a new direction, and at a new (swift) pace




Scene 3 - Vincent's Chamber:

Pascal = Reasoned voice of Vincent's caution

Mouse = Frightened voice of Vincent's caution

Jamie = Cultural voice of Vincent's caution (cultural in the sense of ingrained Tunnels principles and lifestyle)

[Three Friends Together = Reactive inhibitions initiating a self-preservation mode in the face of potential change]

Catherine (in absentia) = Vincent's desire for self-expansion in new contexts

Action = Vincent reasons with his fear and his native culture, then solicits a rational evaluation of his choices from his conscience

Costly Choice = Vincent slows down to carefully weigh the detriments and benefits of change, at the expense of his previously swift and impulsive pace of growth

Motivation = Vincent recognizes the wise and protective nature of his conscience, and is accustomed to listening to it



Scene 4 - Montage of Vincent's Chamber, The Whispering Gallery, The Chamber of the Falls, and The Central Park Tunnel Entrance:

Vincent Alone = The introspective power of an introverted personality

Action = Vincent engages in active, focused contemplation

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to invest his time and energy in asking private questions of himself at the expense of making preparations for potential change

Motivation = Vincent trusts both his intuition and his capacity for critical thinking during his decision-making process



Scene 5 - Central Park Entrance Gate:

Catherine = Vincent's resurgent hopeful urge to leap into unknown conditions in pursuit of happiness

Action = Vincent explains his refusal to risk his present well-being for the uncertain prospect of future well-being

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to postpone growth in this direction at the expense of disappointing his hopes for immediate happiness

Motivation = Vincent values his secure freedom to choose between the risks of self-growth and the risks of self-maintenance



Scene 6 - Interior Tunnels:

Vincent Alone = The isolated pressures of an introverted personality

Action = Vincent makes a pained retreat into his inner sanctum

Costly Choice = Vincent relinquishes his dream of quick expansion at the expense of experiencing a natural depression which accompanies the process of accepting a personal loss

Motivation = Vincent wants to feel safe in a restful setting after his time of turmoil



Scene 7 - Vincent's Chamber:

Vincent's Voice = Vincent's deepest regrets

Catherine's Voice = Vincent's disappointed hopes

Father's Voice = Vincent's dire fears of annhilation

Action = Vincent suffers the exhausting emotional backlash after his dream of risky change is utterly extinguished

Costly Choice = Vincent decides to resist his dark thoughts and feelings at the expense of damaging/deranging his inmost haven of light

Motivation = One of Vincent's chief priorities is to fend off despair whenever it encroaches upon his peace of mind; here he finds that his anger is insufficient to ward off the effects of grief and a fear of self-betrayal, so the core of Vincentself provides a rescue by riddling him deeper into his psyche, in order to refocus Vincent's energy into a different outlet for personal growth....



~ Zara

Re: Remember Love

by Maclurv » Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:41 am

Zara said: Scene 2: Vincent wants to grow in a new direction, and at a new (swift) pace
I like this motivation! I can see how the interaction with Father presents this aspect. Quite well, actually!

Pat

Re: Remember Love

by Maclurv » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:23 am

Myself, I maintain a private interpretation that I'm saving for a fanfiction tale, someday...
I expect to hear all about it at the con, where I will remain tight-lipped about what I hear! :lol:

It's not easy to take another's perspective, but it can be enlightening! Looking forward to what you come up with in your musing!

Pat

Re: Remember Love

by Zara » Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:13 am

Pat wrote:Granted, but uncertainty is not the same thing as not being safe.
For people who are not considered full human beings by upperworld society, uncertainty Above poses a terribly grave danger.
Pat wrote: May I ask you to do your framework on the rest of the show?
You can ask... ;) Just remember, in this episode I'm being challenged as much as you, because I'm working with someone else's interpretation for the sake of learning a new angle of the story. Myself, I maintain a private interpretation that I'm saving for a fanfiction tale, someday...

I'll see what I can do about parsing "Remember Love" into my little roadmap.

~ Zara

Re: Remember Love

by Maclurv » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:48 am

:oops: So I guess I need to go back and read what the heck I wrote!
Zara quoted me: - came from: "VINCENT-FATHER - Wanting something for yourself? You must put yourself last. Humility always, eh?"
Ah, yes. I meant this to convey from Vincent's perspective that perhaps Father was a bit heavy handed in the moral lessons department, and to have put this in the extreme to show that Vincent has wants, and may wish to put himself above others to have those wants when it may be possible without depriving others.
The dream derives its tension from the genuine uncertainty involved.
Granted, but uncertainty is not the same thing as not being safe. Again, the cost framework speaks to me of a final assessment, which cannot be made without other info. But deem it costly if you must! :D
I had not thought of structuring the scene summary this way. But I'm also not thinking in terms of internal/external forces. If it's a dream, it's all internal.
Looking over your framework and your statements, Force-field Analysis popped into my head. The whole thing can occur internally, but even a dream can see outside threats more clearly, sometimes, or suggest interplay with an outside element where none exists, bringing to mind the larger question, why?. But, it is your construct, and I shouldn't tinker. (putting tools away)

I can see where you come from for those motivations. Thank you for thinking of this challenge. May I ask you to do your framework on the rest of the show? Your way is much shorter than mine! :lol:

Pat

Re: Remember Love

by Maclurv » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:32 am

So quit bragging already, Sobi, that you have been enjoying Beauty and the Beast at deeper levels for longer than the rest of us! We are swimming along as fast as we can! (Said with jest and the warmest regards! Thanks for going back and finding what you wrote before! :D )
Sobi said: Did you notice that it's only in this nightmare that V is found "in the garbage", behind St Vincent's hospital, while all the other times it's mentioned in the other episodes, they just found him "near" the hospital? It’s his fear to having been rejected that is speaking there.
I did not notice this. I swear, whether I've watched an episode 5 times or 50 times, I still find out something new that I missed!

Regardless of the loving home in which you end up, when you are a personage like Vincent, it has to wound, a little at least, to have been discarded (most gently) versus thrown away in the garbage. Expected to die, and to be better off that way than alive. So I can see your point that in referring most directly to the garbage in this episode, there is the fear of rejection lurking there.
Sobi said: I confess I never understood what the heck the title means. Help?
The tritest answer is that it is in the dialogue and sounds important: Remember Love!

However, upon further thought and musing, I can add that, as I have said before, to me the underlying principle over-riding this show is that Love is Everything. Easy to say, even easy to agree with, but more difficult to practice in all the myriad ways. So perhaps it is a reminder for Vincent to remember Love is the core; that everyone has the right to want love and give love, even Vincent; that with love and through love, we want the best for those we love as they wish for the best for themselves.
Sobi said: Why did Catherine kill him, in the end? A plot device? Not only, I think: it's the reply to his soul searching: there is no life for him, if C is not the other part of his soul. BUT also the tunnel dwellers in Paracelsus version killed him, as if there were no life for him beyond the tunnels in the version he knows. So?

So, Catherine, the true Catherine, kisses him awake, and the dream remains just a dream, which points out the choices he has to make, but he has to make them awake. And the two of them. With love.
So, we have another aspect to the Balance that is Vincent: balancing his life with Catherine with his life with the tunnels. I agree, it is a balance to strike with the two of them, and with love! Nicely said!

Pat

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