The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

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Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Maclurv » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:53 am

It struck me when watching China Moon how methodical and planful Vincent was in defending the Tunnels from the Tong. When face-to-face with the leader, he tried to get the leader to back off; when the leader made it clear he would never stop coming to vanquish them, he then allowed the injured fighter's thrown star to hit the leader. Vincent did not seem remorseful after these killings, and there were quite a few. So why did some killings bother Vincent, and begin the process that Paracelsus was able to inflame for his purposes?

It was suggested during the episode discussion that it was when Vincent fought when enraged that he felt remorse; as if being taken over by his more animalistic nature, he felt lost and perhaps feared losing himself to that baser nature. So when was he enraged? When Catherine was in peril. He might have been more methodical in The Outsiders, like with the Tong, had it not been for Catherine coming down and being taken by the Outsiders. When Snow came down in Season Three, he was methodical there. Of course, Catherine was gone then. But Vincent did not seem enraged.

So the thought occurred, in terms of the balancing act that is Vincent, that the very thing that brought him the greatest joy in his life, Catherine's love, also created the means for his potential destruction, or at least his collapse. He values her love for him, and his for her, but his need to protect her creates the potential to tap into his baser nature, the beast, which unbalances the careful construction he has created for himself.

Coupled with Catherine's zealousness in transforming herself and facing her fears, which often translates into risky behavior and thus requiring Vincent's protection, Vincent created quite the dilemma for himself when he first found her. He enabled her to begin her path to recreating herself in a better way, which leads to behaviors that often call for his protection, which causes him to engage himself in a way of being that unbalances his psyche.

So, is this a long way of saying, 'be careful what you wish for Vincent?'

Thoughts?

Pat

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Zara » Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:23 am

Since we are seguing into a more Catherine-focused dialogue, I will respond over in The Thing About Catherine thread.

~ Zara

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Maclurv » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:45 am

Zara,

One of these days, you are going to have to come out of your shell and tell me what you think! :lol:

Glad the line seemed out of whack to you too, at least I'm not out to lunch on this one.

Okay, I'll bite. Yes, I agree that Catherine refusing to go Below was a bit contrived. Yet, how was The Watcher to be caught if she literally was not the bait? Yes, it could have been accomplished, hopefully in the daytime, with her nights protected Below. By her absence at night, he would become more irritated, and less careful, and eventually make a play at work, perhaps.

What I liked about this episode is the premise that they were alone in having to deal with this for fear of exposing Vincent. Take him out of the equation, and it was like any other stalker show and the police would be after him, and the question would be, would they catch him in time? But with Vincent, and the possibility of photos, Catherine had to be circumspect.

So, what other misogynist leanings did you glean in this episode or in Though Lovers Be Lost? The Hollow Men can remain in the refuse can, it is truly a horrible episode. To Reign in Hell we have discussed, so for now, I'll limit my questions to the two referenced episodes.

Pat

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Zara » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:55 am

I'm just going to flat-out state that I hate "The Watcher."

It is one of the four episodes in the series that unforgivably railroads the characters into dark, dire, misogynist plotlines. The other three on my ARGH! list are: "To Reign in Hell", "The Hollow Men", and "Though Lovers Be Lost".

I'd say the reason Vincent's lines in "The Watcher" seem unbalanced is that the "real" (un-railroaded) Vincent would never utter (let alone think) those words. The contrived plot required both Vincent and Catherine to refuse to pursue the course of sanctuary Below, regardless of Tunnels principles, common sense, or basic self-preservation.

It is, in a word, stupid.

It is also utterly out of character for our Beast.

Tuppence,

Zara

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Maclurv » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:00 am

I am watching The Watcher. It popped out to me, right at the beginning, that after the two discover they are being watched, and Vincent returns Below to discuss it with Father, Father reminds Vincent that the tunnelfolk can help protect Catherine as he doesn't think it wise for Vincent to return Above since he's been seen. Vincent responds with, ' This is Catherine. I must protect her.' This strikes me as a bit possessive, or harkening back to age-old views of male-female relationships, which I thought Vincent was more modern about. Also, his absolute refusal to Father for other's help in protecting Catherine flies in the face of one of their prime principles: to ask for help when needed, to accept help when offered.

Anyway, this strikes me as terribly out of balance for Vincent. Thoughts?

Pat

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Zara » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:47 pm

...I'm still working on that list...

;)

Zara

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Maclurv » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:41 pm

The cheerleading, that attitude of "you are noble/good/talented/what-have-you, and ONLY noble, and I won't let you talk about any manner in which you do not feel yourself to be noble," does not have good effects on the person who must receive this approach from others.
Interesting. I had not thought of it in this way before. I certainly see your example in Rolley.

I will have to pay closer attention to dialogue for this. I don't think they do this a lot, though. Catherine does answer a lot by saying she loves him, all of him. I guess one could say that this brushes aside his concerns, although usually in these scenes Vincent is not the most forthcoming with explanations or descriptions of what is going on with him. And she is saying she accepts him, whatever the case. Father, I can't recall enough at the moment.

I guess the aspect about your comment that doesn't quite fit the bill in me is that I don't think either Catherine or Father see him in such absolutes, so that they can't listen to anything 'less than' from him. Catherine comes to realize how killing impacts him, the toll it takes on him. She, perhaps more than any other tunnel resident, has seen more of Vincent in his protector mode. She tries to keep his frame of reference for this as necessary action to protect the ones he loves. What she may not do as well, is hear well enough from him how part of him revels in it. In that sense, yes, I can agree with your perspective.

I'll definitely think on this some more.

Pat

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Zara » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:33 pm

*chuckles*

One more occasion which demonstrates the complexities of the communication process. Thank you for explaining your ideas further, and for your patience with me.

Making better sense of things now,

Zara

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Maclurv » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:21 pm

I guess my list was not clear in terms of how I meant it. I was speaking to S's idea of how one's difference can help/benefit the other.

So, I saw Vincent and his need of safety etc establishing limits for him, whereas Catherine seems to looks for ways of getting around the limits (ie possibilities). Then I mentioned Catherine's impulsiveness which could benefit from Vincent's ability of restraint. Lastly, I saw her Extraversion (her love for activity, etc) benefitting Vincent the way his introspection (as in Introvert) can help Catherine (inner growth for example).

I did not mean to lump all those under the banner of Intro/extraversion.
Catherine thinks in terms of limits just as much as any other character in the show. Vincent thinks in terms of possibilities more than most.
People deal with what must be dealt with, and in Vincent's life, that means being considerate of his limits. But for Vincent, his life is balanced on those limitations, so he would by necessity think along those lines more naturally. I would say that Vincent dreams more than most, but not that he thinks in terms of possibilities more than most, although by being changed by Catherine's love, I believe he starts to think in possibilities more. :)

Pat

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Zara » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:18 pm

S wrote:Certainly it’s often easier, only, probably it’s not the right thing to do, or at least not as a pattern. He’s not supposed to tolerate her: he chose her, he loves her and he has to learn to accept and deal with her and with her issues, like in any healthy relationships, and I like to think that he’s happy to. And probably the cheerleading attitude may have some good effect on him, like his more solemn attitude on her. I am still stubbornly seeing at the story as the tale of a couple.
I'm sorry. I did not mean to imply that Vincent sees Catherine and her life as a chore, or their relationship as something to tolerate. Nor that the story is not one of a couple. I wish only to describe this particular source of pain in Vincent's life. I'm not sure how to explain better. Here's another try.

The cheerleading, that attitude of "you are noble/good/talented/what-have-you, and ONLY noble, and I won't let you talk about any manner in which you do not feel yourself to be noble," does not have good effects on the person who must receive this approach from others. The clearest example of the harm it does, that I can find in the show, is found in "Chamber Music." What everyone does to Rolley with their relentless praise and manipulation of his musical talent destroys that child. That is the "cheerleading" I speak of. Such cheerleading prevents the "cheered" from being allowed to be merely human. It is just as damaging as derogatory statements that denounce one's humanity, and even more dangerous in some ways, because no one commonly believes "positive thinking" to be hurtful. But it is. It can be very exploitative. And when Father and Catherine in particular behave this way toward Vincent, it demeans him and isolates him. They do not intend for this to happen, no! But it increases his vulnerability to suffering whenever he "fails" in his "nobility."

We talk so much about Vincent's personal high standards of conduct and self-concept, and sometimes we speak disparagingly. Yet the unremitting evaluation of who he is according to the hero everyone else wants him to be certainly adds tremendous pressures to the imperative for moral perfection in Vincent's being. In trying to bolster Vincent's beauty, people so easily dismiss the fact that real beauty is always a balancing act. The cheerleading which does not permit Vincent's honest self-criticism unbalances his identity. And that hurts him badly.

~ Zara

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Zara » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:35 am

Two points.

First, I just wanted to mention my theory about the visual representation of the Other that we see at the end of Season Two/beginning of Season Three. I think the images we are given portray the way people who don't know Vincent perceive Vincent as a monster. He is reacting to the collective assumptions about his supposed monstrosity when he sees the Other. It's not an accurate representation of his shadow-self; it's an imported vision, the burden of hatred which his wounded mind can no longer bear.

Second, I think it is dangerous to categorize Vincent's thinking/introversion in terms of limits, and Catherine's thinking/extroversion in terms of possibilities. They are both incredibly creative individuals who exist in completely separate cultures and environments. Their story is about each one learning how to deal with the other's unique limitations and possibilities respectfully and lovingly. The personality types per se do not balance each other. Their personal choices do that. Impulsive introverts exist, as do restrained extroverts, so I cannot associate the balance you describe with specific trends of personality. Also, if Vincent alone gets associated with limits, we're going to start addressing him and his people in terms of destructive stereotypes about the disempowered and disenfranchised, and then the "normalization" process takes over, judging Vincent/Below by dehumanizing mainstream/Above standards. Catherine thinks in terms of limits just as much as any other character in the show. Vincent thinks in terms of possibilities more than most.

I would say that Vincent benefits from Catherine's repeated choice to perceive more and more of who he is, to accept the person she perceives, and to love him more the better she knows him...as she transforms into a true Beauty over time. Catherine benefits from Vincent's complete faith in her growing process, and the unstinting love that always perceives her increasing potential for true Beauty long before she perceives it herself.

~ Zara

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Maclurv » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:46 am

Certainly it’s often easier, only, probably it’s not the right thing to do, or at least not as a pattern. ...
And probably the cheerleading attitude may have some good effect on him, like his more solemn attitude on her.
Well said! I think Vincent is so used to thinking in terms of limits that he benefits from Catherine's seeing possibilities; she the more impulsive, needs more of his restraint; and she the more out-going Extravert, balanced with his introspective Introvert.

Yin and Yang!

Pat

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by Maclurv » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:34 am

when the show did personify the duality of Vincent visually, do you believe the storytellers departed from an essential theme of B&B? Did the storytellers reject the very Beast character, the very complete hero they originally created?
I don't quite agree that the producers 'personified' Vincent's Other as much as used it as a story-telling device. I understand your concern, S, about
no ongoing process of looking at them, seeing and making decision about them, be it rejecting, embracing, taming, hating, loving them and so on, according to the infinite nuances and recurrences of such dark places
Vincent is a Beast, after all, and they needed a way to explore what this could mean in a way that is readily understandable to the audience. And I think Vincent grappled with his other side, as do we all. Whether it be the conscious/unconscious duality, good/evil, etc, we are one individual who must grapple in our understanding of who we are, how we came to be the way we are, and where/how we can grow into the best person we can be. Vincent has such sharply delineated differences from the rest of us that, in some respects, having Vincent hallucinate an Other is a way to see his perspective about the Beast side of himself, and having Vincent and Father discussing what happens when his Beastly self comes to the forefront, or more conscious, is another way for us to learn about the concerns Vincent faces and Father frets about. Vincent never gave himself a 'free pass' for actions he did while his baser nature prevailed; I think he tended to create his limits and barriers based on his Beast to protect everyone else from having to deal with his darker side, whether it be violence or anything else. Others around him tended to be forgiving of him when he was in the 'grip.' And that may speak more directly to your concern of blame being assigned externally.

Did the show do a good job in regard to the above quote? Sometimes yes, sometimes, no. I wish I had access to Koslow and GRR Martin to ask if they had any clear thoughtful plan in mind to show how Vincent would assimilate and live with himself more holistically. They also didn't show this struggle well, if at all, with any of the other characters. Missed opportunities!

Pat

About Catherine

by 222333 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:17 am

*
Some catching up…
Zara:
And one thought I just had about Catherine's sacrifice...

The love she expresses toward Vincent in the cave ("The Rest is Silence"/"Though Lovers Be Lost - A") results not in death for either of them, but in life for both of them. The sacrifice she makes there is the sacrifice of releasing the last strongholds of her old life and accepting complete unity with her beloved, come what may. I consider it an extension of the "Beauty and the Beast" fairy tale theme that was so prominent in Season One. Catherine's death at the end of "Though Lovers Be Lost" has nothing to do with Vincent, per se. That was the result of the new story that opened *after* the scenes depicting Vincent's transformation/recovery.

With regards to the Season Three material, I think it important to note where the Dark Turn of "The Hollow Men" through "Though Lovers Be Lost - A" story ends, and "Though Lovers Be Lost - B" begins the new story arc that carries the tale into Vincent's Quest for the Lost Child. There are separate storylines in play there.
*
Exactly. As I already said, the sacrifice is consistent with the Dark Turn. It’s the Dark Turn that, in my opinion, is not consistent with the previous story. To me, it says: Vincent is doomed, the Other is too powerful. Only the sacrifice of the Beauty can bring the happy ending. In that, she’s not the woman of two worlds any more, and the story is not about the miraculous and symbolic balance that they find in the borderland that is their love nest. Vincent has become completely the Beast, and she “follows” him in the darkness to bring him back. Beautiful, but quite another story.
Zara:
That said, I think the storytellers had a stronger concept for their Beast than they did for their original Beauty. Both characters had their moments of flux and strain as opposing positions vyed for prominence in the storytelling. But modern heroines create special challenges for fables and fairy tales, because so many conflicting views of womanhood constantly yank those characters in any number of directions. Catherine stands as a consummate 1980s mainstream career-woman success story, an educated, high-class lady with powerful professional skills who takes up humanitarian causes after getting her first taste of street-level life in NYC...but keeps ending up in situations she cannot get out of without the violent intervention of her Beastly protector. I can sympathize with some of her struggles, but I guess I'm a Tunneldweller at heart. Catherine doesn't offer me much that I wish to emulate. So I will trust the positive insights of you who *can* connect with this character, and hope that my critiques of her flaws remain useful to the conversation.
*
Definitely the initial concept involved a kind of Beauty that needed the violent intervention of the Beast, as if the storytellers had precisely that idea, but the rescue situations slow down in the final part of S1 and almost disappear in S2, following the emerging of what I wish to emulate: the growth of that Beauty, from a consummate 1980s mainstream etc., to a woman completely, hopelessly in love with a “unique”, terribly difficult being, without trying to change a iota of him, rather in struggle with herself and some stubborn and annoying traits of her character and of her upbringing, in order to create with him a special place where to make their worlds meet. I like it SO much…
Zara:
...And I am wondering if they do not address Vincent's fears because they are having trouble addressing their own fears. Facing fear is definitely a theme of Catherine's character evolution, and she meets with mixed success along her journey. Where Vincent is concerned, Father is better at addressing fear than Catherine by simple virtue of having had years' more practice at it...and Vincent tends to entrust Father with his struggles more than he does Catherine...until after "The Rest is Silence" cave. Maybe, in a way, in the end, Catherine's less-practiced take on dealing with fundamental differences in one she loves ultimately helps her to bridge the gap between herself and Vincent that Father, however much more he comprehends about the situation, cannot himself close. She reaches a point where her ignorance no longer matters to her, where she sets her questions aside and decides to competely trust her heart and obey the deepest imperatives of love.
*
Absolutely. This is what I love in Catherine. As I said above, there are traits of her characters that are irritating, but I admire the determination to follow her heart, a feature that in some parts of their story is a problematic, but which in this case is useful and consistent. Once she has chosen Vincent, she is completely and irrevocably his. And she does not love him “despite” what he is, but “because” of what he is. This is the big difference between she and Father, I think. No regrets nor fears about what he “is”, never. Lots about the limitations, but the ongoing struggle with sacrifices is her part of the deal, and it’s absolutely credible – she’s the career-woman etc. you described above when we meet her, she has a long path to travel.
Zara:
He definitely shares that responsibility...heck, he claims every last shred of his own responsibility, always...and never blames Catherine for his troubles. I'm certain, though, that he believes it is often *easier* and less painful to deal with his problems by himself. Catherine's relentless cheerleading and investigative approach become both hurtful and distracting on many occasions. There are times when Vincent just does not have the energy to work through Catherine's issues on top of his own.
*
Certainly it’s often easier, only, probably it’s not the right thing to do, or at least not as a pattern. He’s not supposed to tolerate her: he chose her, he loves her and he has to learn to accept and deal with her and with her issues, like in any healthy relationships, and I like to think that he’s happy to. And probably the cheerleading attitude may have some good effect on him, like his more solemn attitude on her. I am still stubbornly seeing at the story as the tale of a couple.

S

Re: The Balancing Act That Is Vincent

by 222333 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:06 am

Zara wrote:
S wrote:Back to Vincent, and with the above in mind: if the underlying idea is that to win his battle he has to accept the Other, or kill the Other, or anyway his problem is the Other with a capital O, it means to reject the beautiful duality that is the inspiring theme of B&B, and the reflection of our lives. That “other” part of him is not “other”. Personifying it is misleading.
So, when the show did personify the duality of Vincent visually, do you believe the storytellers departed from an essential theme of B&B? Did the storytellers reject the very Beast character, the very complete hero they originally created?

~ Zara
*
Yes, I think so. It’s the Koslow vision that becomes something similar to the Beast of the new CW show, from what I hear. But it’s a very personal opinion, rooted in what I tried to explain, and it has the cost of rejecting a considerable part of the show. It’s not something I recommend or I feel like campaigning for. For me it’s inconsistent and unfair, but changes and unfairness do happen in real and fictional lives. In this particular story, and based on the “it’s just a TV show” mantra I earlier mentioned, I feel entitled to choose what I want to believe.

S

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