by 222333 » Sat Jun 01, 2013 10:17 am
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Some catching up…
Zara:
And one thought I just had about Catherine's sacrifice...
The love she expresses toward Vincent in the cave ("The Rest is Silence"/"Though Lovers Be Lost - A") results not in death for either of them, but in life for both of them. The sacrifice she makes there is the sacrifice of releasing the last strongholds of her old life and accepting complete unity with her beloved, come what may. I consider it an extension of the "Beauty and the Beast" fairy tale theme that was so prominent in Season One. Catherine's death at the end of "Though Lovers Be Lost" has nothing to do with Vincent, per se. That was the result of the new story that opened *after* the scenes depicting Vincent's transformation/recovery.
With regards to the Season Three material, I think it important to note where the Dark Turn of "The Hollow Men" through "Though Lovers Be Lost - A" story ends, and "Though Lovers Be Lost - B" begins the new story arc that carries the tale into Vincent's Quest for the Lost Child. There are separate storylines in play there.
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Exactly. As I already said, the sacrifice is consistent with the Dark Turn. It’s the Dark Turn that, in my opinion, is not consistent with the previous story. To me, it says: Vincent is doomed, the Other is too powerful. Only the sacrifice of the Beauty can bring the happy ending. In that, she’s not the woman of two worlds any more, and the story is not about the miraculous and symbolic balance that they find in the borderland that is their love nest. Vincent has become completely the Beast, and she “follows” him in the darkness to bring him back. Beautiful, but quite another story.
Zara:
That said, I think the storytellers had a stronger concept for their Beast than they did for their original Beauty. Both characters had their moments of flux and strain as opposing positions vyed for prominence in the storytelling. But modern heroines create special challenges for fables and fairy tales, because so many conflicting views of womanhood constantly yank those characters in any number of directions. Catherine stands as a consummate 1980s mainstream career-woman success story, an educated, high-class lady with powerful professional skills who takes up humanitarian causes after getting her first taste of street-level life in NYC...but keeps ending up in situations she cannot get out of without the violent intervention of her Beastly protector. I can sympathize with some of her struggles, but I guess I'm a Tunneldweller at heart. Catherine doesn't offer me much that I wish to emulate. So I will trust the positive insights of you who *can* connect with this character, and hope that my critiques of her flaws remain useful to the conversation.
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Definitely the initial concept involved a kind of Beauty that needed the violent intervention of the Beast, as if the storytellers had precisely that idea, but the rescue situations slow down in the final part of S1 and almost disappear in S2, following the emerging of what I wish to emulate: the growth of that Beauty, from a consummate 1980s mainstream etc., to a woman completely, hopelessly in love with a “unique”, terribly difficult being, without trying to change a iota of him, rather in struggle with herself and some stubborn and annoying traits of her character and of her upbringing, in order to create with him a special place where to make their worlds meet. I like it SO much…
Zara:
...And I am wondering if they do not address Vincent's fears because they are having trouble addressing their own fears. Facing fear is definitely a theme of Catherine's character evolution, and she meets with mixed success along her journey. Where Vincent is concerned, Father is better at addressing fear than Catherine by simple virtue of having had years' more practice at it...and Vincent tends to entrust Father with his struggles more than he does Catherine...until after "The Rest is Silence" cave. Maybe, in a way, in the end, Catherine's less-practiced take on dealing with fundamental differences in one she loves ultimately helps her to bridge the gap between herself and Vincent that Father, however much more he comprehends about the situation, cannot himself close. She reaches a point where her ignorance no longer matters to her, where she sets her questions aside and decides to competely trust her heart and obey the deepest imperatives of love.
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Absolutely. This is what I love in Catherine. As I said above, there are traits of her characters that are irritating, but I admire the determination to follow her heart, a feature that in some parts of their story is a problematic, but which in this case is useful and consistent. Once she has chosen Vincent, she is completely and irrevocably his. And she does not love him “despite” what he is, but “because” of what he is. This is the big difference between she and Father, I think. No regrets nor fears about what he “is”, never. Lots about the limitations, but the ongoing struggle with sacrifices is her part of the deal, and it’s absolutely credible – she’s the career-woman etc. you described above when we meet her, she has a long path to travel.
Zara:
He definitely shares that responsibility...heck, he claims every last shred of his own responsibility, always...and never blames Catherine for his troubles. I'm certain, though, that he believes it is often *easier* and less painful to deal with his problems by himself. Catherine's relentless cheerleading and investigative approach become both hurtful and distracting on many occasions. There are times when Vincent just does not have the energy to work through Catherine's issues on top of his own.
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Certainly it’s often easier, only, probably it’s not the right thing to do, or at least not as a pattern. He’s not supposed to tolerate her: he chose her, he loves her and he has to learn to accept and deal with her and with her issues, like in any healthy relationships, and I like to think that he’s happy to. And probably the cheerleading attitude may have some good effect on him, like his more solemn attitude on her. I am still stubbornly seeing at the story as the tale of a couple.
S
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Some catching up…
[quote]
Zara:
And one thought I just had about Catherine's sacrifice...
The love she expresses toward Vincent in the cave ("The Rest is Silence"/"Though Lovers Be Lost - A") results not in death for either of them, but in life for both of them. The sacrifice she makes there is the sacrifice of releasing the last strongholds of her old life and accepting complete unity with her beloved, come what may. I consider it an extension of the "Beauty and the Beast" fairy tale theme that was so prominent in Season One. Catherine's death at the end of "Though Lovers Be Lost" has nothing to do with Vincent, per se. That was the result of the new story that opened *after* the scenes depicting Vincent's transformation/recovery.
With regards to the Season Three material, I think it important to note where the Dark Turn of "The Hollow Men" through "Though Lovers Be Lost - A" story ends, and "Though Lovers Be Lost - B" begins the new story arc that carries the tale into Vincent's Quest for the Lost Child. There are separate storylines in play there.[/quote]
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Exactly. As I already said, the sacrifice is consistent with the Dark Turn. It’s the Dark Turn that, in my opinion, is not consistent with the previous story. To me, it says: Vincent is doomed, the Other is too powerful. Only the sacrifice of the Beauty can bring the happy ending. In that, she’s not the woman of two worlds any more, and the story is not about the miraculous and symbolic balance that they find in the borderland that is their love nest. Vincent has become completely the Beast, and she “follows” him in the darkness to bring him back. Beautiful, but quite another story.
[quote]Zara:
That said, I think the storytellers had a stronger concept for their Beast than they did for their original Beauty. Both characters had their moments of flux and strain as opposing positions vyed for prominence in the storytelling. But modern heroines create special challenges for fables and fairy tales, because so many conflicting views of womanhood constantly yank those characters in any number of directions. Catherine stands as a consummate 1980s mainstream career-woman success story, an educated, high-class lady with powerful professional skills who takes up humanitarian causes after getting her first taste of street-level life in NYC...but keeps ending up in situations she cannot get out of without the violent intervention of her Beastly protector. I can sympathize with some of her struggles, but I guess I'm a Tunneldweller at heart. Catherine doesn't offer me much that I wish to emulate. So I will trust the positive insights of you who *can* connect with this character, and hope that my critiques of her flaws remain useful to the conversation.[/quote]
*
Definitely the initial concept involved a kind of Beauty that needed the violent intervention of the Beast, as if the storytellers had precisely that idea, but the rescue situations slow down in the final part of S1 and almost disappear in S2, following the emerging of what I wish to emulate: the growth of that Beauty, from a consummate 1980s mainstream etc., to a woman completely, hopelessly in love with a “unique”, terribly difficult being, without trying to change a iota of him, rather in struggle with herself and some stubborn and annoying traits of her character and of her upbringing, in order to create with him a special place where to make their worlds meet. I like it SO much…
[quote]Zara:
...And I am wondering if they do not address Vincent's fears because they are having trouble addressing their own fears. Facing fear is definitely a theme of Catherine's character evolution, and she meets with mixed success along her journey. Where Vincent is concerned, Father is better at addressing fear than Catherine by simple virtue of having had years' more practice at it...and Vincent tends to entrust Father with his struggles more than he does Catherine...until after "The Rest is Silence" cave. Maybe, in a way, in the end, Catherine's less-practiced take on dealing with fundamental differences in one she loves ultimately helps her to bridge the gap between herself and Vincent that Father, however much more he comprehends about the situation, cannot himself close. She reaches a point where her ignorance no longer matters to her, where she sets her questions aside and decides to competely trust her heart and obey the deepest imperatives of love.[/quote]
*
Absolutely. This is what I love in Catherine. As I said above, there are traits of her characters that are irritating, but I admire the determination to follow her heart, a feature that in some parts of their story is a problematic, but which in this case is useful and consistent. Once she has chosen Vincent, she is completely and irrevocably his. And she does not love him “despite” what he is, but “because” of what he is. This is the big difference between she and Father, I think. No regrets nor fears about what he “is”, never. Lots about the limitations, but the ongoing struggle with sacrifices is her part of the deal, and it’s absolutely credible – she’s the career-woman etc. you described above when we meet her, she has a long path to travel.
[quote]Zara:
He definitely shares that responsibility...heck, he claims every last shred of his own responsibility, always...and never blames Catherine for his troubles. I'm certain, though, that he believes it is often *easier* and less painful to deal with his problems by himself. Catherine's relentless cheerleading and investigative approach become both hurtful and distracting on many occasions. There are times when Vincent just does not have the energy to work through Catherine's issues on top of his own.[/quote]
*
Certainly it’s often easier, only, probably it’s not the right thing to do, or at least not as a pattern. He’s not supposed to tolerate her: he chose her, he loves her and he has to learn to accept and deal with her and with her issues, like in any healthy relationships, and I like to think that he’s happy to. And probably the cheerleading attitude may have some good effect on him, like his more solemn attitude on her. I am still stubbornly seeing at the story as the tale of a couple.
S